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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

to think it's not appropriate for school trip to include a visit to a bullring?

109 replies

Merula · 07/11/2023 14:22

Interested to hear your views. Our school have announced a trip to Madrid, which will include a visit to a bullring. Obviously it will not be while a bull fight is occurring, but there is a fee to visit the bullring, so in effect, by paying for my child to attend, we will be supporting bullfighting. A previous trip to Spain included a visit to a dolphinarium. Would you be ok with this or would you question the appropriateness with the school?

OP posts:
Original poster
Merula · 07/11/2023 17:10

LittlePudding1 · 07/11/2023 16:59

Is it a compulsory trip?

I presume you have the option for your child not to go if you feel strongly about it rather than kicking up a fuss and potentially ruining it for others that want to experience the trip?

🤷🏻‍♀️

Who said I was going to 'kick up a fuss'? I asked if other people thought it was appropriate and whether they would raise it with the school. If I'm the only parent feeling uncomfortable with the idea of funding bullfighting, then I'm sure I will receive a polite reply from the school in response, but the trip will go ahead as planned. Of course, it is my choice whether or not to pay. However, it might well be that most/all the other parents are not keen on the idea, but without speaking up, how will we know?

OP posts:
Original poster
Merula · 07/11/2023 17:12

Utterbunkum · 07/11/2023 17:09

But by giving the building another income stream, you might be helping the bullfighting to stop. Many of these old bullrings have stunning architecture, etc, that locals want to preserve. If they could get enough money out of tours of the building, it's an incentive to stop the fighting, but keep the history.
If people only pay to see the fights, that is the only thing that will happen there. But if bullrings are repurposed as sites of historical interest,the buildings are retained,somebody gets to keep their job and before you know it, there's no fighting any more, because there's a more lucrative option.

Show quote history

Interesting point and it would be great if that was the case.

OP posts:
Twoshoesnewshoes · 07/11/2023 17:19

I would be happy to pay for my children to go, all good information for them to consider and debate.
and agree with PP, I’m not sure that meat eaters have a strong ethical stance on this.
expecting to be flamed, but I am quite chilly atm so…

Utterbunkum · 07/11/2023 17:22

Merula · 07/11/2023 17:12

Interesting point and it would be great if that was the case.

Show quote history

It might well be. I understand the Madrid bullring hosts other events now. It might be worth looking at whether your money is actually for the purpose of funding the fights or keeping the building going now the fights are not the main attraction.

Createausername1970 · 07/11/2023 17:25

But is this not a way to open a child's mind to different cultures, both the good and the bad aspects, and encourage them to think about things like this and form an opinion?

GonnaGetGoingReturns · 07/11/2023 17:30

Katiesaidthat · 07/11/2023 15:31

It must be Las Ventas. It is actually a very impressive historical building. And I say that as a Spaniard who hasn´t attended a bullfight in her 49 years on planet Earth. I visited the Ronda 18th century bullring and found it really fascinating. Few people attend actual bullfights and they take place at certain times during the year only, like the San Isidro fair. Bullfighting was a very important cultural expression and had important influence on the arts at one time and it is still important for the countryside and rural life in certain areas of the country. It will die a natural death once there aren´t enough ticket buyers to sustain them. Right now most bullrings are used for shows and concerts. I remember the last survey I read in Spain as for and against was 49 against-51 for. It is best to let them make up their own opinion, and chill out.

@Katiesaidthat , I’ve been to the Ronda bullring too, had no idea it was 18th century but it was decimating (and stunning). We did not see a bull fight either.

missskinnylegz · 07/11/2023 17:33

It's disgusting. I wouldn't let my child go

Fionaville · 07/11/2023 17:41

I would be OK with it. We are a family of animal lovers. It's a place of cultural interest and its a good opportunity to discuss opinions on the subject of animals as a form of entertainment. I'd object if there was going to be a live fight as that would be too distressing.

NeverDropYourMooncup · 07/11/2023 17:42

Vegetus · 07/11/2023 16:23

Unless you're a vegan then you're paying to support animal cruelty everyday anyway so why does it matter?

P.S I'm not vegan

If they're not vegan, they might as well go for broke and take the kids to see a fight then (using that logic) - maybe follow it up with some rides on abused donkeys, shooting some wildfowl and maybe chucking a goat off a tower? After all, they're not vegan and vegans don't want anybody who isn't one to do anything that might reduce cruelty to animals or even be represent the first step in awareness and possibly becoming vegan in the future...

LittlePudding1 · 07/11/2023 17:42

Createausername1970 · 07/11/2023 17:25

But is this not a way to open a child's mind to different cultures, both the good and the bad aspects, and encourage them to think about things like this and form an opinion?

Agree with this, there is lots of good and bad throughout history. Let's open up our children's minds and give them a full cultural view.

ginasevern · 07/11/2023 17:45

I'm with you OP. I'm sure your daughter already knows what a bullfight is so I'm not buying the "cultural immersion" bit. They still have bear bating in Pakistan and parts of Turkey (centuries old entertainment). Would other posters encourage their kids to see this in the name of culture? I doubt it. And of course the fee goes towards the upkeep of the bullring and therefore helps to sustain bullfighting and the promotion of bullfighting. Even if they do have monthly operatic performances or whatever else. I don't think anyone needs to visit a bullring to have an informed debate about the activity, that's nonesense. As for the dophinarium, I honestly have no words. I really would be speaking to the school on both counts.

Newnametoavoidtrouble · 07/11/2023 17:47

They used to get it on TV, I watched it in South of France.
It is not for us to get arsey about what foreign people do without a lot of thought.

Allthegoodnamesarechosen · 07/11/2023 17:54

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ginasevern · 07/11/2023 17:56

@Newnametoavoidtrouble

Really? I'm afraid I'm of the opinion that we share one world and if there is cruelty or injustice anywhere it is very much my right to speak out about it and, where possible, try to end it. Those of us with a conscience will continue to defend those that do not have a voice. Or, as you so eloquently put it, continue to be arsey. Is that enough thought for you?

Newnametoavoidtrouble · 07/11/2023 17:57

Glovers used dog skins for many styles in Victorian times.
Just saying

Lifeinlists · 07/11/2023 18:02

I doubt they'll be able to decide on the ethics by just visiting the bullring, as suggested by some pp, without actually see a bullfight too. I guess most of the parents wouldn't be happy if that was included but that's why it was built and that's its primary purpose still.

If it was no longer an entertainment in Spain, then fair enough to admire the architecture and history. But by paying to visit it, you are in some way endorsing bullfighting even if the ring is used for other events.

gotomomo · 07/11/2023 18:07

I'd be livid. Madrid is full of amazing places to visit that don't support animal cruelty. I would be wanted them to offer an alternative such as Museo Reina Sofia where guernica is housed, amazing painting and essential history behind it.

AddictedToBooks · 07/11/2023 18:33

I would not be sending my child as any money going towards the bullring is obviously supporting the practice. I understand it's part of Spanish culture but that doesn't alter the fact that it's a barbaric practice.
I would definitely be contacting the school and objecting as I do think it's inappropriate to visit - they don't have to visit a bullring, to learn about that part of the culture.

AnnaMasse · 07/11/2023 18:57

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You seem quite nasty and spiteful. Try not to be so unpleasant. Many vegetarians and vegans speak of murdering animals.

spirit20 · 07/11/2023 19:23

I'm a head of an MFL department who regularly organises trips to Spain, and we have visited bullrings in the past. Tours to a bullring present both sides of the argument and the topic of bullfighting is covered on the A-Level syllabuses of most of the exam boards, where the various opinions are covered. The buildings are also of architectural significance and very impressive to see.

If a parent did email me to complain about us visiting it, I would send a curt email back informing them that the choice of what to include on the itinerary is that of the individual teachers. I would also add that the trip is optional, and if they do not wish their child to visit it, then they should simply not send their child on the trip.

OnLockdown · 07/11/2023 19:35

I've been there with my child (when there wasn't a fight on) even though I'm against bullfighting. It is a beautiful and interesting building with a museum inside and it's a good jumping off point for a discussion about animal cruelty. Also, these days lots of other events are held there. Concerts etc

Bluedabadeeba · 07/11/2023 19:38

What a fantastic way of opening a debate and critical thought. Hopefully it will be used as an opportunity for a cultural understanding of the history AND the debate surrounding it. Let's see how the young people make up their minds!

(FWIW) I actually went to SEE a bullfight when I was 11 where they didn't kill the bull as it was a 'kids' showing', shortly before I became a vegetarian for life. In my 20s, living in the south, my entire group of friends went to see one (for the first time) and I declined.. most of them came out feeling quite traumatised by the experience.

Anyway, not sure, but I think in Madrid, it's very rarely practiced these days - I get the impression most people are against it there. Mostly very cultural entrenched in the south though, from what I understand. Either way, part of the Spanish culture nevertheless.

GuessItsANameChange · 07/11/2023 19:56

I wouldn’t be happy with that, it is not something that I would feel comfortable contributing money towards (and I’m surprised the school would think it appropriate to give money to support an activity that is illegal in the UK).

I’m not sure if it can be considered an important part of Spanish culture. It’s banned in parts of the country and only ~20% of people support it.

GuessItsANameChange · 07/11/2023 20:01

An imperfect but possible solution - maybe you pay for your child to attend but also make an equivalent donation to CAS International or some other anti-bullfighting org.

rwalker · 07/11/2023 20:03

Wouldn’t bother me it’s a piece of history and there normally architecturally stunning

leads nicely into discussion how we’ve moved on and what was once regarded as entertainment is now be seen for what it is