Page 3 | Sister wants to sell our jointly owned property aboard but I don't ??

iwanttoholdyourhand · 2023-10-31T18:56:49+00:00

I need some advice. I jointly own a property abroad with my sister. We are both in our late 40s. She does not work and is on benefits. She now wants to sell her share of said property and I don't . This property was gifted to us by our mother. It is currently rented out. The country the property is located in the economy is really bad at the moment and it's already lost £10k of its value. The total value is now around only £50k. I want to wait it out and have plans to eventually semi retire in the country the property is in. I also have very fond memories of spending summers at this place. I really don't want to sell. However, she wants out now and would like the money. I cannot afford to pay her in excess of £25k. I have suggested given her a small lump sum of £5k and then monthly payments of £500 per month over 3 years. She is angry and is not happy with this suggestion. She would like the money in one lump sum. AIBU. I work full time and also have a young family. The money I give her will be tax free for her and also I don't think she will declare it to her benefits office. I really don't want to upset her but think she's being a little unfair.

Original poster

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 20:23

theunbelievabletruth · 31/10/2023 20:18

Your sister has obviously lied to get UC. There is a very clear question about 'do you own any property other property either in the uk or abroad. ?

Money OR assets with a value over 16k makes you ineligible for UC although in some circumstances a 12 week dispensation can be considered to give the claimant time to sell. But that's only if she has declared it. Otherwise her claim has been fraudulent from the moment she was in receipt of benefits and owned another property.

The benefits will be reduced by her rental income whilst the house sale goes through.

Do with that what you will.

My sister has been claiming UC fraudulently for years. I chose not to get involved with what she does that's her life choice. I work and pay my taxes. I own my own property.

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Original poster

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 20:31

MariaLuna · 31/10/2023 19:55

It’s going to depend entirely on what the laws are in this other country.

Not at all if she's paying her sister in UK.

She'd have to pay for a lawyer though to get the property transferred to her name only (and have the paperwork, and pay for translation).
It ain't cheap.

I will pay for all the lawyers fees and taxes in the respected country for the transfer of the property onto my name. I am trying my best to help my sister out.

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Original poster

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 20:33

BeardieWeirdie · 31/10/2023 20:01

I’d bet my children on her still wanting to use it for free holidays once you’ve bought her out. Good luck - and keep everything above board!

Yea I do have a feeling she will blow through the money I give her very quickly she has a tendency for reckless spending. and then expect to stay there too.

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MotherOfVizslas · 31/10/2023 20:40

YABU. The property is as much hers as it is yours. You either sell the property or you buy her out, it's the only fair way.

Original poster

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 20:50

MotherOfVizslas · 31/10/2023 20:40

YABU. The property is as much hers as it is yours. You either sell the property or you buy her out, it's the only fair way.

I am figuring out a way to try and buy her out but trying to find £25k will take some time

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Springingintosummer · 31/10/2023 20:50

I would buy her out. Get the property valued and give her half. However, out of her 50% share she will have to pay half of all costs involved in selling it.

if she wishes to visit the property after she has received her 50% share, then she no longer has any right, so I would make sure she has no keys or anyway of accessing it in case any issues are caused for you renting it out.

personally, I would inform the right agencies to ensure he loses her benefits, but that is because I pay taxes so do not see why I should for people who are immoral. Benefits are for those in need who do not have 25k in their bank account,

Springingintosummer · 31/10/2023 20:51

Well it will take time to get it valued and you can’t cancel rentals.

do ask your sister for half the money for selling it - so if she can’t pay for things upfront, that will delay things until you can sort things out.

Zilla1 · 31/10/2023 20:52

Good luck. HNRTT but perhaps try to view the temporary reduction in the value of the property due to the state of the market as beneficial in saving you half of the reduction in the £10k in the purchase price you'd need to pay. Make sure you get an independent valuation at a suitable time to ensure your DSis doesn't make herself feel she has been hard done by. Also, make sure half the legal fees for the sale-side are charged against her share as they would be if you sold it entirely now. Again, might be helpful to put in writing the obvious like she'll stop receiving half the rental income from the point of sale and she won't be entitled to stay there for free if it can be rented out. Sometimes difficult people have a habit of feeling aggrieved when the can't have their cake and eat it.

.

Original poster

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 20:54

Springingintosummer · 31/10/2023 20:50

I would buy her out. Get the property valued and give her half. However, out of her 50% share she will have to pay half of all costs involved in selling it.

if she wishes to visit the property after she has received her 50% share, then she no longer has any right, so I would make sure she has no keys or anyway of accessing it in case any issues are caused for you renting it out.

personally, I would inform the right agencies to ensure he loses her benefits, but that is because I pay taxes so do not see why I should for people who are immoral. Benefits are for those in need who do not have 25k in their bank account,

I do agree with you but I am torn I don't want her to get into trouble with the benefits agency.

How can I possibly report my own sister ? I may not agree with what she does but that is her choice

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Original poster

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 20:57

Zilla1 · 31/10/2023 20:52

Good luck. HNRTT but perhaps try to view the temporary reduction in the value of the property due to the state of the market as beneficial in saving you half of the reduction in the £10k in the purchase price you'd need to pay. Make sure you get an independent valuation at a suitable time to ensure your DSis doesn't make herself feel she has been hard done by. Also, make sure half the legal fees for the sale-side are charged against her share as they would be if you sold it entirely now. Again, might be helpful to put in writing the obvious like she'll stop receiving half the rental income from the point of sale and she won't be entitled to stay there for free if it can be rented out. Sometimes difficult people have a habit of feeling aggrieved when the can't have their cake and eat it.

.

Yes I agree I will ensure everything we decide is put in writing via a solicitor.

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itsalongwaybackfromsorry · 31/10/2023 21:03

Tell her you will sell, of course, as you have to if you can't buy her out and she wants to go ahead. But that she will lose her benefits as the money will take her over the savings limit to keep collecting them. Leave her in no doubt the money will be reported, as it should be.

nibblessquibbles · 31/10/2023 21:04

OP be careful on this. As part of my divorce I got the abroad property and I had to pay a substantial cost to transfer into my name, this was just the paperwork but I had to pay the full equivalent of stamp duty even though my ex didn't on the UK property.
There was also capital gains for him on disposal of our rental flat and I made sure that it was clear in our paperwork that he was liable for any taxes etc on his side. I'm fairly sure he didn't pay CGT which I did pay and was a fair whack!
You should make sure it's clear that each party is responsible for their own tax bills and declarations to the relevant authorities.

Be careful also that you have a fair valuation on the property including all costs before you pay your sister with the loan. She doesn't get half the valuation but the valuation less all the costs as that is what would happen if you sold it and divvied the proceeds.

MariaLuna · 31/10/2023 21:11

I do agree with you but I am torn I don't want her to get into trouble with the benefits agency.

I get that OP, but you can't be covering for the choices your sister made in life....

Seeing as it's rented out, maybe leave it to next year to decide.

My sister had a flat abroad, a family - parents, 2 kids - had rented it through her. She kept it on till they moved even though she wanted to sell it.

TheHateIsNotGood · 31/10/2023 21:15

Buy her out at 25k and it's up to her what she does or does not declare to UC; you're not in charge of her.

After you sell it to her, if you then consider her decisions with regards to her benefits, etc so immoral then you can report her to the appropriate authorities if you feeel so strongly about it.

Just based on what you've stated here it seems very possible that she wants to sell, you don't and can't afford to buy her out either and so you're looking for reasons not to sell the property that your DM left equally to both of you.

Original poster

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 21:39

nibblessquibbles · 31/10/2023 21:04

OP be careful on this. As part of my divorce I got the abroad property and I had to pay a substantial cost to transfer into my name, this was just the paperwork but I had to pay the full equivalent of stamp duty even though my ex didn't on the UK property.
There was also capital gains for him on disposal of our rental flat and I made sure that it was clear in our paperwork that he was liable for any taxes etc on his side. I'm fairly sure he didn't pay CGT which I did pay and was a fair whack!
You should make sure it's clear that each party is responsible for their own tax bills and declarations to the relevant authorities.

Be careful also that you have a fair valuation on the property including all costs before you pay your sister with the loan. She doesn't get half the valuation but the valuation less all the costs as that is what would happen if you sold it and divvied the proceeds.

I will definitely look into all the costs and tax implications.

It's so tough money and family really don't mix.

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towriteyoumustlive · 31/10/2023 21:54

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 19:41

Thanks everyone for your responses.
To make it clear my sister is on UC and does not plan to tell them of this transaction at all.

Yabu.

It's only half yours so you will need to find the money to buy her out. Or just sell it and take your half and spend it on having fun with your kids.

As for her not declaring it... just phone the UC people yourself and let them know.

NotStayingIn · 31/10/2023 22:00

I honestly think you will be way better off selling, splitting the proceeds, and never being financially tied together again. Whichever way you try and work the not selling option, it will lead to an ongoing saga.

Any long-term benefit you will get out of the property will be met with her feeling hard done by and thinking you owe her or she is entitled to more. Cut your loses, move on.

MuggleMe · 31/10/2023 22:05

If it were to be sold there would be fees. I think it's fair to split the cost of what the fees would have been.

Loubelle70 · 31/10/2023 22:10

iwanttoholdyourhand · 31/10/2023 19:55

She does not plan to tell them which I feel is quite immoral

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Immoral? Its none of your business. Too many people judgemental on what others get and thinking others will judge them if you tell them...i won't slate anyone or judge them about what they do or dont get. Divide and conquer rhetoric angers me. What she declares or not is no business of yours, with respect. However, wouldn't you see it as immoral to hold out like you are on your sister?.

Chalkdowns · 31/10/2023 22:15

I don’t know what the law says but morally I think if you can’t afford to buy her out it is just bad luck for you. She should be able to realise her asset / her inheritance. You are stopping her from doing so. Personally I think you are in the wrong here.

FirstFallopians · 31/10/2023 22:16

PP are focusing on OP’s sister’s UC circumstances, but unless she declared the proceeds herself, was subject to a spot check or was reported to DWP by someone she knew, she’s not going to get suddenly “found out” purely because of this sale.

It’s a risk she’s obviously willing to take, and that’s her responsibility.

I’d sell up if I was you, OP. If she’s already fraudulently claiming UC I’d worry about what other risks she was taking, and I wouldn’t want any financial ties to that person.

CliantheLang · 31/10/2023 22:20

I would have questions.

For instance - why does she need the money right now? (Assuming your sister isn't a drug/gambling addict.) Does she have a new boyfriend? You know, the kind that thinks that what's her's is his.

Giving her a lump sum may not be doing her any favors, here.

But then, you can tell I've been spending too much time on the relationships board.

Goldbar · 31/10/2023 22:25

I would say yes and then do absolutely nothing to progress this.

It will take her a long time to organise lawyers/valuations etc and it sounds like she's going to struggle to pay fees or a retainer upfront. This is not going to be a speedy process. In the meantime, maybe start saving and looking at loans with a view to buying her out if she does manage to get things into gear. But inaction seems your best friend here.

Loubelle70 · 31/10/2023 22:36

Goldbar · 31/10/2023 22:25

I would say yes and then do absolutely nothing to progress this.

It will take her a long time to organise lawyers/valuations etc and it sounds like she's going to struggle to pay fees or a retainer upfront. This is not going to be a speedy process. In the meantime, maybe start saving and looking at loans with a view to buying her out if she does manage to get things into gear. But inaction seems your best friend here.

Surely thats immoral considering OP accuses her sister of being 'immoral'. Actually if sister can prove she owns half house the solicitor can wait for payment until she gets payout under agreement between parties.

MariaLuna · 31/10/2023 22:39

What she declares or not is no business of yours, with respect.

HA! It is very much her business what she declares. The sister owns part of a house in a foreign country while living off the tax payer. Bottom line.

She'll get it, OP, why are you feeling you owe her? You don't.

Families are complicated. As you see every day here.

You are not responsible for your sister's life style or choice in life.