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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask another 'class' question?

251 replies

PonyLo · 30/10/2023 23:55

I know.
But i was reading another thread and it brought this to mind. People keep blithering on about it on MN, but the topic is often about signifiers such as clothes, house, job, schools, consumer choices and such.

So I had this thought - if a huge amount of people were just placed together in a big group wearing only a simple cotton dressing gown and no make up, could you tell what *social group they belonged to?

Like the bare bones?
My guess is that probably not! You might try to pick 'hair style' but I have found that varies wildly (I am middle class with a good amount of natural frizz). Which kind of confirms my suspicion that it's all about perception, rather than fact.

*'Social Group' is a much preferable description since it disqualifies attempts to use hierarchical judgements.

OP posts:
Gnomegnomegnome · 31/10/2023 07:04

If it’s a room full of mumsnetters and you could talk to each other it would be okay because people would tell you immediately without being asked Wink

Martin831 · 31/10/2023 07:04

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Brexile · 31/10/2023 07:07

sollenwir · 31/10/2023 06:46

I think life experiences, as well as class, can influence how a person behaves in different situations - I am quite adaptable and have been able to fit into various completely different circles over the years, without anyone saying or me feeling like I'm obviously out of place. It also helps to remember that we're all humans with hopes, dreams and fears, whether we're high achieving university professors or barristers, someone struggling with addiction and or mental health, or the whole range in between.

I am working class, my family were working class, but I've always made the best of opportunities and the education offered to me, and was lucky to have a supportive mum (dad passed away when I was young). I didn't have some of the privileges many MN'ers appear to have had, but that's life, and I cannot change it!

Edited

I know what you mean. In my twenties, a boyfriend once said to me that the great thing about me is that he could take me anywhere. I appreciated the (rare) compliment but I knew it wasn't true: during Freshers Week, for example, a crude method of networking used by those from minor public schools was to march up to someone, ask which school they went to, then move on to the next person if the first one turned out to be some proletarian imposter. 😂At the school gates as a parent, the questions were which road you lived on and whether you owned or rented. (I failed all of these gatekeeping tests btw.) I don't know whether this supports your adaptability theory or not: obviously we can pass as "respectable" in middle class circles by not being covered in bad tattoos or effing and blinding in an Eliza Doolittle cockney accent, but a couple of probing questions and it all unravels.

PS - only the socially insecure types pose these questions, of course. The genuinely posh think they already know everybody worth knowing, and we're pretty much invisible to them. Likewise, high achievers who aren't from particularly blue-blooded backgrounds will just relate to me normally, without inappropriate curiosity about my social credentials or any attempt at point scoring. This lack of focus on social climbing/gatekeeping in probably one reason why they are successful.

grottyb · 31/10/2023 07:11

Why is everyone so obsessed with the class system in this country.

i think it’s MNs that is obsessed as opposed to the country. Class does exist of course but the examples on here are usually outdated tropes & ignore the fact many parts of the country have a lot more diversity.

PonteMinchi · 31/10/2023 07:11

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines - previously banned poster.

Because social class still dictates key things in people’s lives, like education, opportunities and life expectancy to a depressing extent! It’s not something from the past. You’re confusing unimportant class markers with the class system.

Pooooochi · 31/10/2023 07:14

There are of course lots of class signifiers:

  • it us true that statistically there are height and health differences, even today. If anything it's becoming more exaggerated as society is becoming less equal not more, with the upper classes accessing much better diets and healthcare.
  • speech/language - not really accents, but turns of phrase & idioms, grammar, social references, styles of address.
  • manners/mannerisms - there are certain styles of manners etc that tend to be taught in some walks of life.
  • clothing: DH is from a higher class upbringing than me and knows almost unconsciously various "rules" of dress etc around when you should/shouldn't unbutton a jacket, remove/wear a hat. For years he would never, ever have worn a navy suit (because navy suits are for uniforms) & he would never ever wear brown shoes to work.

However, there are lots of exceptions, and anyone trying to classify a whole room full of people would invariably make many judgement errors.

Hearmenow23 · 31/10/2023 07:16

Everyone wants to be labeled a middle class

I really don't! No matter what I have achieved by this age, I will always be working class. I think because I was raised without privilege and didn't have access to half of what mc people had. My upbringing is who I am to the core.

However, we think our dc are mc, we're trying to stop them being proper knobs 😂

MidnightOnceMore · 31/10/2023 07:19

PonyLo · 31/10/2023 00:29

Er no, teeth are not indicators in my experience. I have only witnessed bad teeth in people with deep issues (addiction etc), or genetic luck.

I know a lot of working class people who are very well off and have access to more perks than myself.

This question came to mind because I was musing about how we perceive people and put them into boxes really. How old modes of judgement are still there, as presumptions (fillers, lips, etc) and hair.

A good question is how would we see the men in this group?
Someone will say tattoos or hair length maybe?

What you post about teeth and finances is the opposite of what is known from reviewing statistics.

Catsfrontbum · 31/10/2023 07:19

I think the UK is such an unequal country that those of a perceived higher status try and cling on to it! With their rules and ways of being. It’s been my general experience that the MC are exclusive and try and keep everyone out. It’s competitive and scrabbly where as the UM and above are far more egalitarian and welcoming as they can afford to be.

And in terms of class by appearance-yes I think I would know. There are physical identifiers that give it away I think… some but not all.

RudolphTheRedNosedSpaniel · 31/10/2023 07:20

icallitasplodge · 31/10/2023 00:51

Also OP all your come backs are from people you know, it’s anecdotal and selective.

You don’t know every working class person in the country.

This.

Pooooochi · 31/10/2023 07:21

Why is everyone so obsessed with the class system in this country

Because it is there, underlying lots of choices that are made and despite generations of effort to deconstruct it, people from the upper end of the class spectrum continue to:

  • own the vast majority of british wealth, particularly land
  • be disproportionately overrepresented at the most selective academic institutions
  • be disproportionately overrepresented in occupations of power or influence, such as politics & diplomacy, law and the judiciary, the upper ranks of the military, journalism, and finance
RudolphTheRedNosedSpaniel · 31/10/2023 07:21

Caerulea · 31/10/2023 01:00

Well. This thread turned out to be as nauseating as I expected. Have any of you any idea of how judgemental and shallow you sound?

I think I could tell - most of you would be looking down your noses at me. Pretty good class signifier in 2023 as it was in 1923.

And I'd be spooning my soup the wrong way with huge hunks of buttered bread to hand ;)

With your bad teeth, tatoos and rough hands?! 🤣

RudolphTheRedNosedSpaniel · 31/10/2023 07:22

PonyLo · 31/10/2023 01:18

I think a lot of people on MN are desperate to climb the social ladder.
To presume tacky, rough handed imagery of the working class suggest insecurity.
If i was WC, i would pay this no mind. It is a cesspit of desperation!

Class, to me, is a construct to pacify those who have to work (99% of us), but need someone to look down on, which neatly explains why we have a dubiously titled 'underclass'.

So you started a thread all a about it.

RudolphTheRedNosedSpaniel · 31/10/2023 07:26

Pooooochi · 31/10/2023 07:21

Why is everyone so obsessed with the class system in this country

Because it is there, underlying lots of choices that are made and despite generations of effort to deconstruct it, people from the upper end of the class spectrum continue to:

  • own the vast majority of british wealth, particularly land
  • be disproportionately overrepresented at the most selective academic institutions
  • be disproportionately overrepresented in occupations of power or influence, such as politics & diplomacy, law and the judiciary, the upper ranks of the military, journalism, and finance

And judge those they deem to be "lesser" than themselves somehow. Purely on account of the circumstances of their birth. Which they had no control over.

Whilst not realising how ridiculous this makes them look 🙄

ohdamnitjanet · 31/10/2023 07:26

When I lived in Watford I was gently teased for being posh. When I lived in Surrey I was seen as a bit rough. I fondly hope I’m neither 😆

grottyb · 31/10/2023 07:26

Because it is there, underlying lots of choices that are made and despite generations of effort to deconstruct it, people from the upper end of the class spectrum continue to:

  • own the vast majority of british wealth, particularly land
  • be disproportionately overrepresented at the most selective academic institutions
  • be disproportionately overrepresented in occupations of power or influence, such as politics & diplomacy, law and the judiciary, the upper ranks of the military, journalism, and finance

But the above doesn’t really apply to the average mc person today. The middle classes are being hollowed out with incomes stagnating.

DdraigGoch · 31/10/2023 07:27

TutuDesi · 31/10/2023 01:21

I’d probably be able to tell class by the quality, colour and cut of the dressing gown, especially if it’s got a hotel logo on it. 😂

The fact that they were willing to wear it in public would be a pretty big clue. Not everyone wears a dressing gown on the school run or to the supermarket!

Dibbydoos · 31/10/2023 07:30

Well this experiment has been done hasn't it? By the Germans in the second world war.

Jewish people of every 'class' were rounded up, forcefully washed and clothed the same. No you can't see the difference.

All this talk about nails, botox etc is crass. Stop judging people fgs. Their body, their choice.

BTW, my nails are always done cos a hysterectomy means my nails peel and break. I don't have botox etc, but I have and do have plason facials. No change to your facial features but your skin looks years younger. I would be classed as upper middle based on qualifications, income, house etc if I cared anything about a stupid antiquated way of organising people. Go on, bite me!!!

TodayInahurry · 31/10/2023 07:30

Some odd comments, I meet many people in the horse world. Very wealthy ladies who do their own mucking out, look like a tramp. Many young people who spend all their money on their horses, not clothes etc. To multi millionaires with expensive cars and £250,000 horse boxes.

The current fashion for overdone hair, make up, tattoos etc is often, but not always lower wage people

CurlewKate · 31/10/2023 07:30

Denying that England is a deeply class ridden country just perpetuates the class divisions. Look how vilified the few non middle or upper class politicians are. Look at the demographic of the different universities. Look at the education system. Look at public health. Just look at the world around you. To change things you have to recognise what's actually happening.

MajorBarbara · 31/10/2023 07:33

Copious tattoos tell their own story.

PonteMinchi · 31/10/2023 07:34

TodayInahurry · 31/10/2023 07:30

Some odd comments, I meet many people in the horse world. Very wealthy ladies who do their own mucking out, look like a tramp. Many young people who spend all their money on their horses, not clothes etc. To multi millionaires with expensive cars and £250,000 horse boxes.

The current fashion for overdone hair, make up, tattoos etc is often, but not always lower wage people

I guarantee you it would not just be possible but easy to distinguish between the social class of the women mucking out their horses and actual tramps.

CurlewKate · 31/10/2023 07:37

@PonteMinchi "I guarantee you it would not just be possible but easy to distinguish between the social class of the women mucking out their horses and actual tramps"

Ditto the young people spending all their money on their horses not clothes.....

WrongSwanson · 31/10/2023 07:39

CurlewKate · 31/10/2023 04:21

People only get cross about this sort of thing if there is an implication that one class is better than another one. And that implication is often there-look at any thread about education. They are always full of middle class people looking for ways to keep their children away from working class children. It's not phrased that crudely, of course.....

Agreed. I'm always curious why so many blindly assume one class is "better" than another. Intriguing.

(I say that as the most boringly solidly middle class person ever. I don't understand the idea this makes me better. I had an easier start in life, sure, but that's just down to the accident of birth. If anything it makes me less impressive than people who have had constant struggle)

BeyondMyWits · 31/10/2023 07:40

From my own experience, yes you can tell, and it is more of an overall aura, a sense of belonging.

Go to an orchestral music concert. We did last month, felt uncomfortably out of my depth. Some people just "belonged" there. ( and yes they were the ones with "posh" voices)