To ask another 'class' question?

[PonyLo]

I know.
But i was reading another thread and it brought this to mind. People keep blithering on about it on MN, but the topic is often about signifiers such as clothes, house, job, schools, consumer choices and such.

So I had this thought - if a huge amount of people were just placed together in a big group wearing only a simple cotton dressing gown and no make up, could you tell what *social group they belonged to?

Like the bare bones?
My guess is that probably not! You might try to pick 'hair style' but I have found that varies wildly (I am middle class with a good amount of natural frizz). Which kind of confirms my suspicion that it's all about perception, rather than fact.

*'Social Group' is a much preferable description since it disqualifies attempts to use hierarchical judgements.

Well actually lots of people, because arguably class is the main form of acceptable and legal discrimination in this country right now. So for WC people like me, your denial that this exists or even matters is quite significant.

@Blackandwhitemakesgrey I've been told I have great skin. Had some Botox but was told it was unnecessary but had it anyway as I want to starve off the wrinkles. A lot of people have Botox, the same as lip fillers but you wouldn't know if they're really well done

That's nice. Lucky you for having nice skin?

Is it in reply to the summary of the study I posted about wealthy people looking happier? The study comprised of people age between 18 and 35 so I doubt too many of them had crow's feet really.

Are people looking at this thread and wondering if they fit into whatever class they'd like to be in themselves? I wouldn't worry about it at all. We all are what we are................

I think most people could guess more accurately than chance, even if you couldn't hear people talk.

Of course this kind of guess is based on generalizations. But the reason they are generalizations is because they are often true.

Things that strike me as common, fairly telling class signifies where I live now are hair colour and style, tattoos and the type of tattoos, and possibly teeth, though that is rarer. But in some ways perhaps more telling when you do see it, people who can afford it almost always get necessary orthodontic care now, so those who haven't are usually financially insecure.

I'm not sure why anyone thinks saying these things tend to be suggestive of social class is meant to be pejorative.

Goodness! I didn't realise technology up there was still so primitive that umbrellas were considered to be a strange and unwelcome invention.

How do you ascertain from looking at a thread which class - if you believe in such concepts - the various posters on that thread belong to, to enable you to reach this conclusion? What are your critieria and thresholds for determining someone's "class" from their posts on a comment forum? It's fascinating to me.

I'd also be very interested to hear what you mean about the threads hereon education, if you would be prepared to explain. Previously I have seen posters worried about schools with low academic expectations, low standards of behaviour, children being violent or disrupting lessons repeatedly or bullying. Are you referring to these common issues on education threads and asserting that these things are more common in children of "working class" families? If so, that would seem to somewhat undermine your implicit assertion that it would be unwarranted for others to keep their children away from such people if at all possible... but it would also imply that you think "working class" people are the primary proponents of such undesirable behaviour and that there is some kind of correlation between what you call "class" and such negative behaviour.

Or do you mean something else? What do you consider to be the "working class" traits and identifiers that you believe others want to keep their children away from?

I knew a woman once who managed to make everybody around her feel uncomfortable without saying a word.
Her body language screamed that she was not at ease being around people she considered “lesser.”
I suspect she would behave the same surrounded by women dressed in plain cotton shifts.
Body language says a great deal.
Did you ever know someone who could look down their nose without actually looking down their nose?
Body language.

@Brexile

That's a great post and echoes my experience.

I'd say I'm quite "generic in-the-middle graduate adaptable" as are the people I've had serious relationships with in the past.

I've been on the fringes of super-achiever groups and could arguably have gone "up" in social status through focussed educational and career and relationship decisions.

But I probably lacked the will and focus to really "have that drive".

My experience as an older woman is although I try to be polite, open, present myself in a neutral adaptable way, I'm definitely automatically looked down on/dismissed in some groups after they've worked out I'm not "loaded or high status".

I would say that has bothered me a bit, but not enough to make me change how I present myself or change my career path.

(As I'm non-white, of course this is something quite a few people "see first". I didn't want to think about this when younger, but it does make a difference).

As long as I like myself and my emotions are put first and I have a financial plan I'm happy (hopefully FIRE but I need to be frugal).

I don't really feel I need to work in a super-prestigious job role for validation or to enter certain circles, and I consciously wouldn't date or socialise with someone with that mindset

(plus they'd probably dismiss me or treat me badly if they knew Daddy was unemployed and I couldn't afford that last minute week skiing).

That seems to be my "level" - no-one has loaded parents or from gentry, we've all penny-pinched sometimes and all do Ok.

Couple of my ex's went seven figures early on.

(via Oxbridge, but they worked very hard and like you say very "adaptable" in doing what they could to make money, went through a lot of "beasting" to get there.

Also, neither of them were "in the conventional posh boy scene". One was actually quite bullied in early career stages due to "face not fitting in").

I definitely agree there is a lot of social class signalling at university and when meeting new people.

Not with everyone, of course, but you can see some people blatantly "try to work out if you are worth knowing". "Do you work in an office?" "What do your parents do?". Etc. Etc.

(It's actually the same as I get older in different contexts, I find creepy men looking to cocklodge often try to suss out my finances).

I've got addicted to that cheesy TV show Made in Chelsea (probably why I'm not a high achiever, watching stuff like that ;-) )

and even there you can see the difference money makes - some of the cast members have super-loaded parents and they're treated better, seen as more "socially desirable", etc.

Yes.
The upper middle class women would be wearing spotless dressing gowns from Jaeger or some such place with expensive slippers.
The working class woman would be wearing a dressing gown from Tesco with complimentary tea stains and fag ash down the front and a pair of cheap sliders.

Of course you could tell class. By people’s behaviour, manners, body language, voice …

Was he the mill owner?

@Nepmarthiturn " Previously I have seen posters worried about schools with low academic expectations, low standards of behaviour, children being violent or disrupting lessons repeatedly or bullying. Are you referring to these common issues on education threads and asserting that these things are more common in children of "working class" families?"

No, I'm not. I'm sorry, I obviously expressed myself badly. I'm saying that there are many people who assume that a school with a high % of working class families (what used to be called Cs and Ds) will have more of those issues, and therefore don't want their own children anywhere near them.

Another reason to scrap HS2

Either. Mine are wonky, my husband's are decayed.

Incidentally, I am not ashamed to be working class. Some posters seem to see 'working class' as an insult, which baffles me.

I expect she notices that she gets ‘surprised’ and maybe ‘disapproving’ initial reactions from her friends when she tells them.
I rather doubt it. Especially since her friends seemed to have fancied him as well.

So very sorry, wrong thread!

Yeah sure all us working class women have the calloused hands of a navvy 🙄

That guy working class guy you dated was just spinning you a line. Working class women don't have "hardish hands" has you put it or bad teeth and hair.

Honestly, the way I would know the difference between the classes in the Op's scenario is when all the middle class people open their mouths and all the ignorant, snobby, prejudiced drivel poured out.

I think weight would be the obvious indicator. Statistically, obesity affects lower socioeconomic groups more.

Those who mention Botox, lip fillers etc - are you suggesting these are indicators of being middle class or working class? Where I live, they are done by all classes, but I would say bad lip fillers and bad Botox (i.e. noticeable) is quite working class.

Physical differences like well worn hands and hunched shoulders aren’t an indicator of being working class. Very few working class jobs are still manual, and the people with the worst posture these days are those WFH and hunched over laptops all day.

Regarding weight, perhaps that used to be a factor but middle class people are now also getting fatter and fatter so I don't think that is a useful indicator.

You're taking a not at all serious thread seriously... but don't worry, this is yesterday's thread now and I'm moving on!

I think you might have entirely missed the tongue-in-cheek sarcasm in my post...

... and the way that some of them look down on others, who they perceive to be of lower status.

Yeah, I read somewhere (Jilly Cooper, I think it was) that some upper class women don't have that great skin or nails.

For one thing, some of them don't give a stuff about appearances. They don't need anyone's approval, it's their "pedigree" that matters.

Also, many of them live a real outdoorsy life, horses, out in all weathers, etc.

Look at Princess Anne. She's in great physical condition and I am not saying she has rough hands or anything, but neither does she look like she's gone down the Botox and lip filler route.

Soft hand of the posh people sounds highly unlikely. How would you ride, garden, shoot, walk your dogs?

Indeed. And horse riding/sailing etc.

But most of the excitement and snobbery on these threads tends to come from Lower Middle class people who are desperately keen to show they aren't working class (I don't know why, I don't see there's any value difference between different classes).