To wonder what happens next? 5yo being naughty and violent at school

[EasterBonbon]

5yo SS started reception this year and is being very badly behaved. His teacher has been telling us and his mum and step-dad almost daily at pick-up and email that he’s not paying attention and being violent and unkind to other children.

He’s one of the oldest in his class, was 5 in Sept, and has been in full-time nursery since he was 1 and the school’s pre-school since 3, so it’s not that it’s new to him, though the need to focus and follow instructions has increased. Pre-school also flagged the lack of attention but the violence is new. He’s doing fine academically. He doesn’t seem to like school or any of his classmates, nor did he like preschool.

I’ve asked what happens next to the teacher and she’s just said they’ll keep an eye on it. We only have SS and his siblings on weekends and holidays (mum had an affair then moved away, we all get on fairly peacefully, the distance means we can’t have them more and his mum’s been very clear that she’d never agree to it) and we know his mum and stepdad are much more relaxed on discipline and rules, but there’s no abuse or anything, just little attention in a busy household. He’s honestly very well-behaved with us, including with his siblings and our friends’ kids, so it’s hard to comprehend.

Is he likely to be expelled if it continues? Sent to a PRU?

Have you spoken to him about it? More importantly, have his parents? Asked him if anything's bothering him?

He's only been there about 7 weeks, so I think your last paragraph is pretty dramatic and OTT. But I understand why you're worried for him.

I'd take the teachers lead for the time being, but maybe ask for a meeting between his parents and the school if things don't improve thus half term.

Having said that, the half term leading up to Christmas is notoriously exhausting. So don't expect a dramatic change.

In short, I think a temporary 'wait and see' approach is best.

Sounds to me like you're blaming the mother and step-father. I'd have thought this issue was for the actual mother and father to be dealing with.

Children do not behave this way for no reason. In my school a child who struggles with inattention and has been repeatedly hurting classmates would have been flagged up to the SEND team by now. The fact that issues with focus and attention were noted in pre-school could be relevant. It would be reasonable for the parents to ask for a meeting with the SENCO.

We’ve all spoken to him about it and he says some variant of how the other children are annoying because they won’t do what he wants (teacher says the same - he gets very cross when he isn’t in charge). There’s not any particular kids he’s clashing with, and he doesn’t seem to have any particular friends either. He knows most of them from pre-school.

We have all spoken to him about how violence is unacceptable and he needs to listen to his teacher, so there’s a united front in that sense, but it seems to be getting worse rather than better. ADHD was mentioned in pre-school, but his current teacher doesn’t think it’s likely, and it doesn’t excuse the violence either way.

I am worried for him and don’t think it’s fair to the children in his class, so am wondering what the next steps would be and if others have been through similar. If it’s a common developmental phase then great, but it’s not something I’ve heard of from other friends.

ADHD was mentioned in pre-school, but his current teacher doesn’t think it’s likely, and it doesn’t excuse the violence either way.

If I had a pound for every teacher who convinced a parent to dismiss any notion of autism/ADHD/whatever, I’d be rich.

They are not experts. Sometimes they can spot the signs that parents miss, but equally a LOT of children fly under the radar.

I’m not saying your description of your stepson suggests ADHD particularly, but you need to have an open mind. There is something going on. There have been concerns around behaviour and inattention since preschool.

It’s a cliche but behaviour is communication. He’s telling everyone that he’s struggling and unhappy. This could be “normal” issues around settling into Reception, but it could be something else.

This is a child who’s parents have split up and both now have new partners, he’s the eldest in class and doesn’t like school, all are valid reasons why he is struggling,

Yawn. Imagine its her own child and try answering helpfully.

What's his home life like? Could there be domestic abuse going on?

He's not going to a Pru at 5 lol prus are for teenagers.
My son is in year 1 last year there was a little girl in his class being really naughty for the first few months of reception. Then she started to calm down and now a year later she is fine. So it might be temporary starting school is a big shock to them

I have worked with parents of children with behavioural problems. There needs to be a consistency of rules and boundaries across both homes. He is clearly feeling unsettled/not grounded somewhere to behaving like this. I have worked with parents who were so adamant that their child was autistic or had ADHD as it was a lot easier to “blame” something than make changes to parenting. As another poster stated, he is going through a lot of change so, it is not unusual that he is reacting this way. I would definitely recommend parent support first. Also, for children that age, this is the first line of support that is recommended.

I have seen a similar situation from the school side.

What happened:

They ran a social skills group for the child (and a few others) every day for 20 mins

They added in another TA so that in the mornings there were two TAs - the normal one for the whole class and the additional one whose job was to look after the child and pre-empt any violence by distracting him/moving him away

To start with this was on a voluntary basis - I was a TA in the school at the time and we all volunteered on a rota as the poor reception TA was being run ragged.

They put in an emergency application for financial support due to additional needs for the boy. They had to wait six weeks and collect evidence of the violence/lack of engagement/other needs

When the money came through they employed a permanent extra 1:1 TA just for him,

She worked with the class teacher and the parents to implement a positive behaviour plan, that was consistent between home and school.

His behaviour slowly started to improve.

The other kids in the class were scared of him; he did a lot of shouting and storming out of class etc but the additional TA did manage to minimise the actual violence.

Dd1 was similar. Bit better into y1. Ideally more watvhed in the playground. Now 12 awaiting asd/adhd assessments. School seem to think asd. But similar to your SS impulsivity is an issue.
Your SS seems to have rigidity/friend issues

This ⬆️. My DS struggled throughout school, was assessed twice and still ended up being misdiagnosed. It took until he was in year 9 for him finally to get an ASD diagnosis. Even then the school questioned with the CAHMS worker whether a diagnosis of ASD was likely and she stated that no, it was a tick boxing exercise to say that he didn’t have it 🙄🙄.
They’ll blame the situation with the break up of the family( the parents) , that’s what happened to me, slightly different situation but a large change during early childhood. This seems to happen to lots of families, the default seems to be it’s the parent’s fault 🤷🏼‍♀️.

I am being helpful. One parent and step parent blaming the other's discipline won't fix anything.

It is still very early on in the term. Red flags have been raised so that a behaviour management plan can be put in place to avoid the need for more serious intervention later on. Both you and DP, and his mother and SD will need to be on the same page RE discipline. You say he is not with you that often - does his mother spoil him? You will all need to ver very firm to make it crystal clear that this behaviour is unacceptable What was he like at nursery?

My nephew was the same- ended up with a one on one to stop him hurting the other kids, eventually an ADS diagnosis. He's calmed down a lot now, in his late teens, but he was an awful bully to his younger siblings when he was younger.

So in his 5 years of life his parents have split up, his mum has moved him and his siblings away, his mum has introduced a new partner, and his dad has introduced a new partner… and you wonder why he’s acting out? Poor kid has absolutely no stability ffs

So every child of divorce behaves like this do they? My youngest step son was two when I met him, the eldest 6, neither of them have ever gone around being violent to other kids or acting out full stop.

I'm glad you are in such a lovely 2.4 family, but just remember kids are deeply affected by miserable marriages too. 😘

Well what should happen is the SENCO should be involved. He needs more support. The SENCO should decide what he needs and put it in place. The SENCO should get external advisors in to assess him and suggest provision. If the school cannot fund provision they should apply for funding (LAs often have emergency funding for SEN under different names). Once more help is in place ghetto school can assess effectiveness. They need go
look at what triggers the behaviour and work out to help him.

Parents should consider getting a referral for ASD/ADHD (waiting list are long).

He is 5 years old for crying out loud and he is communicating his distress. He needs help.

Kids do well if they can.

FWIW my 5 year old is far better behaved at home than school because home is not a hectic noisy environment and I know how to help her (she is on ASD pathway). The first half term has been a nightmare for me as the school were useless at recognising her needs and putting the strategies they were meant to in place. It is better now as I have spoken to the school.

The underlying reason and trigger to the behaviour needs identified, is he overwhelmed by demands, does class have an expectation that all kids are sitting in a seat for more than 10 minutes, 'being quiet' is unattainable for many, is it sensory, does he need interventions like movement breaks, sensory input time etc. This is why, when delivered well Play approach works so successfully in infant years. Most are developmentally and emotionally not ready for formal academic learning of old. Old = pre covid.

There are PRUs for primary aged pupils too.

although it isn’t like OPs step son would be going to one any time soon- there is a huge process before going to a PRU

Honestly, all cases like this are not ASD/ADHD related. Most social/emotional/behaviour needs are are specifically NURTURE needs or due to unrealistic demand approach in school and lack of awareness of Covid hangover. These are the toddlers who had a hugely interrupted socialisation process and we're around stressed parents possibly absorbing their stress. Parents need to work together if they want children to develop age appropriate skills. Attachment issues are more prevalent than the ubiquitous asd/adhd and sorry to say but very very few people actually really understand asd/adhd anyway.

DH and I did a lot of reading on ADHD when it was originally suggested and it does make sense. But it also made sense that he was struggling with context switching (two homes + full time childcare + various other babysitters and caregivers is a lot for a toddler) and different expectations for appropriate behaviours in each. He’s had a lot of disruption in his short life. It was felt at the time that he was acting up for attention (he’s always been good when getting 121) and his teacher said he did calm down in the second year of pre-school. The violence is new.

I don’t think he witnesses any direct violence except for their stepdad hitting their dogs, but SC do watch TV and YouTube unsupervised in their house, and they get very little 121 time there. SS is quite rough with his siblings there (according to them) and will happily run over and repeatedly punch his mum in the legs at pick-up, for instance, which she laughs off but wouldn’t fly at all with us.

Co-parenting relations are fairly polite but distant (mum and stepdad had an affair when SS was a baby) and mum generally wants to brush things under the carpet and says everything is fine. She’s previously said ADHD consideration and strategies are OTT and unnecessary and takes any raising of concerns by us or the school as an attack on her parenting so it’s hard to DH to reason with her and we don’t tend to raise anything unless it’s positive or a serious concern nowadays. So if there was domestic abuse happening at their house or any other issues I’m not sure we’d hear about it. We’ve suggested things like shared house rules and discipline, and using ADHD coping strategies across both homes in the past, as well as joint meetings with the school, but she’s not interested. She does communicate more openly with me than DH (stepdad doesn’t really communicate with either of us at all which is his prerogative).

On the whole they’re a good mum and stepdad doing the best they can with a very busy household (there are other children involved, a lot of people coming and going and inconsistent work patterns). As I said, nothing we know about would qualify as abuse, it’s just different parenting. Older SC’s behaviour is fine and they’re all wonderfully behaved with us so this violence and misbehaviour is really concerning.

I guess DH and I are just both really worried for SS and unsure how we can best support him, and unsure what the next steps are likely to be if his behaviour doesn’t improve. Thanks to everyone who’s posted with their experiences, insight and suggestions.

Well what should happen is the SENCO should be involved. He needs more support. The SENCO should decide what he needs and put it in place. The SENCO should get external advisors in to assess him and suggest provision.

Totally agree that this is what should happen. The reality for too many people diagnosed with ADHD and or ASD as teens or adults is that their parents were told by a SENCO in primary that they definitely didn't have any diagnosis and just needed to work harder/pay attention/sit still/write more neatly/be less clumsy/more organised and wait their turn.

This lad has a lot going on, and is new to formal learning. He may well settle happily. But given the concerns flagged to date it's also important to keep an open mind.

My ds is also in Reception and struggling although without the violence. He has:
Movement breaks
Sensory breaks
A 1-1 for a short period each day
Additional/alternative activities if he needs them
A referral to the school SENCO and a support plan
A referral to the local NHS Trust for further assessment although we've been warned it may take a few years

Are the school exploring any of these.

We also support at home with praise and sometimes rewards for good days at school and early bed on bad days.

I think Covid is still a big factor for this year group, until ds was well over 3 we were wearing masks in public and staying 2 meters away from strangers. Ds teacher has said that the additional support needs are really high in her Reception cohort this year.