To wonder what happens next? 5yo being naughty and violent at school

[EasterBonbon]

5yo SS started reception this year and is being very badly behaved. His teacher has been telling us and his mum and step-dad almost daily at pick-up and email that he’s not paying attention and being violent and unkind to other children.

He’s one of the oldest in his class, was 5 in Sept, and has been in full-time nursery since he was 1 and the school’s pre-school since 3, so it’s not that it’s new to him, though the need to focus and follow instructions has increased. Pre-school also flagged the lack of attention but the violence is new. He’s doing fine academically. He doesn’t seem to like school or any of his classmates, nor did he like preschool.

I’ve asked what happens next to the teacher and she’s just said they’ll keep an eye on it. We only have SS and his siblings on weekends and holidays (mum had an affair then moved away, we all get on fairly peacefully, the distance means we can’t have them more and his mum’s been very clear that she’d never agree to it) and we know his mum and stepdad are much more relaxed on discipline and rules, but there’s no abuse or anything, just little attention in a busy household. He’s honestly very well-behaved with us, including with his siblings and our friends’ kids, so it’s hard to comprehend.

Is he likely to be expelled if it continues? Sent to a PRU?

@Screwballs you can leave an unhappy relationship without introducing new partners into your very young children’s life, and often without uprooting them / moving away, I am sorry that this thought didn’t occur to you!

He is five not 15 !! He is not being violent , he is acting out for some reason...
Bring in the ed psych
Have him assessed
There is more to his behaviour
A 5 year old cannot explain what is going on
"Kids annoy me" could cover a whole variety of issues

Prus start at age 5.

It sounds like violence or at least a certain amount of it is acceptable in mum and step dad's house.

You say mum laughs off him punching her in the legs, he plays rough with the older SC and step dad hits the dogs.

He has therefore to an extent learnt that violence is ok.

It's much harder to get rid of that behaviour at school when it is permitted at home or at one of the homes. Complete consistency will have an impact much faster but it sounds like that it not possible,

Realistically it will probably diminish over time. Mum will become increasingly embarrassed by it as he gets older and it becomes more obvious he is seen as the naughty kid, but in some parents this triggers them to address it and work on it but in other parents they just punish more.

All you can do is not allow it in your house.

Hello
My son was exactly the same on reception - in fact I could have written this myself at the time. I was beside myself with worry - I come from a family of academics, no bad behaviour ever at school and could not understand the problem. Every day I was being pulled by the teacher and the stress of it was awful - I was heavily pregnant at the time too.
Anyway - he's now in Year 2 and has grown out of the violence and bad behaviour completely. In fact he's known to the other parents are being sweet and well mannered. There was no talk of expulsion or PRU.
I asked about autism/ADHD at the time as was told by the SEND lead that it was much too early to tell and he also did not have enough 'markers'. I'm glad I waited and didn't label him as he is a completely different child now.
Please don't worry. Schools see this all the time

Thank you, that’s reassuring to hear. Was he badly behaved at home during this time too? SS is an absolute angel with our neighbour’s kids who are 4 and 2, and he’s known at football for helping other children, so the idea of him deliberately hurting other children at school is just alien to us.

No, but every child with ADHD doesn't behave like this either, for
example.

Some kids going through a lot of changes will struggle. Some kids will cope better.

It doesn't automatically spell out SEN.

With dd it was thar she wouldnt express her annoyance at other kids to them. And wouldnt tell on others.
So a boy said 'you arent coming to my party as youre naughty'.
Or 'we dont play with girls'
She hit them on the head. Honestly the boys doing this have been tricky through primary and into secondary. So it maybe your ss is fine at home or with neighbour kids as they dont wind him up.
We also went from maybe 20 kids per room nursery to 60 moving about.

So you need to know the antecedent events.
It could be queuing for eg. Or a disappointment.

Yes only in extreme cases. The vast majority of kids in Pru with behaviour problems are over 10

He wasn't violent at home or with family, ever. Not perfect but just typical 4-5 year old behaviour. I still don't understand why he behaved in that way but he got through it...your boy will too :)

Defensive mum, lack of safe limits on viewing and behaviour, lack of input from grown ups (lack of supervision?), a chaotic household with lots of people, and a step dad who is violent with pets, that is a lot of red flags in that household. Whether he is neurodivergent or not it's a lot, and I wouldn't be so sure there isn't DV as his mum not wanting professional involvement and the stepdad mistreating animals and opting out of cop parenting both seem like pretty big red flags that there's something more going on. Obviously nobody knows, but it does sound like she is resistant to getting her son help, and that is neglecting his health/education needs if he does have ADHD or another condition he doesn't get diagnosis or treatment before because she's too emotionally immature to listen to any one else as regards her sons behaviour (which is becoming a significant problem in school). Sounds like he's a little boy in desperate need of somebody advocating for him if he isn't going to go down the path of multiple exclusions, permanent exclusion, PRU and potentially prison or other criminal charges if the violence continues into adulthood. I'm further on in that, and wish I had pushed harder for my child back when it was a smaller thing before things got significantly worse

But it seems that the mother only allows limited access to the father, the child is mostly under her influence. If she is not allowing more access then she needs to shoulder this responsibility, she can't have it both ways when it suits her.

Well, yes, those are my fears too. But nothing that’s going on is going to cross social services’ radar and the chances of SS’s mum voluntarily relinquishing custody is slim to none. So I’m not sure what else we can do. We are in regular contact with their school, but they’re not very proactive and we’re limited in how much of an impact we can have on SS’s behaviour when we only have him weekends and holidays.

She’s also very reluctant to get medical help for SC when they need it and is very defensive when we try to. Her family and friends won’t speak to us and SC have been told not to discuss what they do at their other home with us as it’s “invasive” apparently.

I’m really hopeful that SS can grow out of this behaviour, or that the school can put in some early interventions that work, but if it continues/escalates I’m really worried for him.

Encouraging them to keep secrets is really concerning. I really hope that there is nothing ominous going on. It must be really hard to see this 5 year old in distress and not be able to help him. Hopefully if you and your DP remain positive parents and people in his life he will come to you should he need to. I hope his Mum will wake up to his needs not being met, be that due to neurodivergence, something in the household, a bullying situation or anything else. I would keep a note of any safeguarding concerns and keep showing up for him. Hopefully it will come to nothing, and it's just a rocky start to reception.

Hold on - your child witnesses his stepdad hitting the dogs? This kinda changes everything for me. He is witnessing abuse of animals, and to be honest if the stepdad can hit an innocent animal, I'm pretty sure he's not a nice guy generally to be around. Watching unsupervised Youtube with older step siblings is a recipe for disaster too. I would be really worried about what this child is being expose to in his mum's home.

COVID has had a big impact on this cohort of children - whilst not born in 2020, they were around 1 year old at the start of the pandemic and on the cusp of toddlerhood and learning important communication skills.

How is his spoken language/understanding? Developmental language disorder is more common than autism and rarely diagnosed as language difficulties are more hidden. It often manifests as behaviour you have described in younger children - www.oxfordhealth.nhs.uk/cit/resources/dld/

DGD (6) has had some similar issues to those you describe. I think it is really difficult to tell the difference between behavioural issues they will just grow out of/can be helped and supported to overcome and some form of neurodiversity that needs proper diagnosis and specific strategies. Sometimes I think she is growing out of it as she can be perfectly well behaved and no problem at all and then the next time the smallest thing can set her off. The meltdowns and hitting out are definitely much improved though compared to the pre-school stage which makes me think probably not ND. Mum and Dad are very much on the same page as the school however and there is no split family which probably helps. In your situation OP I'm not sure you can reasonably do more than you are already, just loving and supporting him the best you can.

All behaviour is a form of communication. I would request a meeting with them, as an eyfs teacher they should be observing them playing so should know : is it specific children or any children ? Is it in a certain area ? A certain time of day ? A certain activity? When it's noisy ? What is he like after he calms down ? Are there any positive friendships you could encourage with playdates ? I think you need to be given a clearer picture rather than just a briefing at the end of every day. I'd ask whether they can contact the senco incase there is something else going on, and maybe ask for a referral to cahms?

This is a child who’s parents have split up and both now have new partners, he’s the eldest in class and doesn’t like school, all are valid reasons why he is struggling

5 year olds aren’t routinely violent. It’s usually driven by anxiety. Which is usually driven by ND

You are right the 5 year olds are not routinely violent.

However, it's not always neurodiversity. It can be attachment issues, and less palatably parenting issues.

I've seen all of them, and in some cases the violence went after support and intervention.

My child (7) has issues with following instructions and paying attention, adhd suspected and he's under the school senco. He's never hurt another child in school as far as I know, even when other children have physically hurt him on a couple of occasions he didn't even hit them back.

I would ask for a meeting with the senco but violent behaviour is more likely to have an emotional reason behind it than anything else.

I'm glad life is so simple for you. Let's hope you never eat your words, or that your children never dare move on from unhappy relationships from which they spawned children.

He's not going to a Pru at 5 lol prus are for teenagers.-

I wish people wouldn’t make things up and present them as fact! Of course there are pupil referral units and alternative provisions for primary aged children.

DS 4 has just started reception and he also had difficulties immediately. The school had us in on day 2 to discuss his needs and he was given a risk assessment and behaviour management plan within days. He now has a TA, a breakout area, various strategies being used and they’ve put a referral into the gp for an adhd assessment.

This sounds a lot like my DS was 2 years ago. It was an awful awful time. I hated school pick up time as there was an incident every other day at one point

School said they thought he might have ADHD and he is waiting for an assessment ( ironically, I was diagnosed with ADHD in January this year as after reading about ADHD I was horrified to find It was like reading about myself! )

They do grow out of it, eventually. DS is nearly 7 now and keeps his hands to himself.

This isnt helpful but no punishment or negative consequences had any affect on my DC. He had/has poor self control and is very impulsive. Even at home he was the Same

He still lashes out at home now, but not at school anymore which is a bonus.

Hes in a mixed class now and is getting annoyed with a younger boy who keeps hurting him, I hear other children complaining about this little boy too and it breaks my heart a little as I know for a fact 2 years ago parents and children disliked my son because of his behaviour

My son started being able to go and have breaks when he was feeling overwhelmed ect. Hes on the list for SENCo ect. Hes started to make proper friends this year but I'm worried his reputation will never recover as he was that horrible boy you hear people talking about every year