To think these are correct table manners or am I just a snob??

[Justintime3]

I was raised with strict table manners, yet I have never been sat at a table with anyone who has the same table manners I do! Are these over the top?

This is what I was taught

1. Do not eat until the person who cooked sits down (excused if the chef says you can start)
2. Do not eat until everyone has their food in a restaurant (excused if the person without their food says you can start)
3. Chew with your mouth closed and do not speak with your mouth full
4. Do not take calls or use your phone at the table. Excuse yourself if you need to
5. Put your knife and fork together at the front of your plate when you are finished
6. Offer the last serving of XYZ to the table before you take it
7. Thank the person who cooked and offer to clean up
8. Elbows off the table
9. Tear bread into small chunks to eat in a restaurant, don't bite off the whole roll

10. Use cutlery correctly

• index finger on top of your knife and fork
• spoons for soup and dessert only. Spoon the soup from the farthest side of the bowl
• load food onto the back of the fork with your knife. (No 'shovelling' as my mum called it)

My mum's always been really strict on it and is the type to point out people's bad table manners so I've always followed these to a T. Thoughts? Is this over the top and I'm a snob, or are these just normal to expect?

Because of how I've been raised I can't help but be put off when I see someone without these manners.

Just keen to see how others were raised!

Imo waiting staff should not approach the table until everyone has obviously finished eating. I hate it when I see this, it's bad service. I worked in high end and very cheap restaurants, admittedly many years ago and this was always basic standard service.

OP all your points were normal in my house growing up.

I’m a slow eater and I talk a lot. It’s often not clear to an outside observer when I am done eating. I don’t mind a single bit being asked if I’ve finished and I can’t imagine a universe where I would give this a second thought.

DS is 14 and has dyspraxia, so severe coordination issues. He still eats most meals with his fingers as he struggles to manage using cutlery comfortably.

I do ask him to try and use cutlery if we eat out in a cafe or restaurant but at home, I couldn't care less about it.

I'm pretty certain he'll default to using cutlery within the next few years but I don't see any point in making his life more difficult at home.

All these silly rules of etiquette were made up by someone at some point in time and they're definitely not universal.

If you want to do something in a particular way, crack on. If you want to judge me or my son, crack on. I really don't care how you choose to eat your food. 😂

Aren't these just normal table manners?

Waiting staff should be able to discern whether all the diners at the table have finished eating or not? It's not a particularly difficult skill to grasp either.

Asking whether somebody has finished when they haven't is rude and Alalalong is right about it being bad service, it really is.

Same rules for me, although these were always more encouraged than enforced through strict rules. I still do them all now…. all except offering to wash up!

Normal table manners. I’m more relaxed at home without company but would always observe those when out or in company.

"I was brought up to do it and I think it's much better than cutting a roll in half and slathering it in butter"

God, this has made me salivate! I'm now craving crusty bread slathered in lovely butter.

<completely misses point>

If that’s true, then why when you are at a restaurant does the server basically always ask “Are you all finished?” when they come to clear up, even if it’s obvious? Are they incompetent for asking? This thread is genuinely eye opening, I had no idea people thought this way. Imagine caring about this sort of stuff, honestly

My post has disappeared but squashing a few peas at a time onto the back of a fork is not something a toddler would do, they wouldn’t have the fine motor skills to do it. It’s also time-consuming and indeed silly but I DID have this stuff bullied into me (same goes for the spaghetti, that’s why I worry about eating it).

Re the bread, I think it might be to keep the crumbs over the plate rather than taking a bite over your lap and getting covered with crumbs?

They’re making sure, and the reason for double-checking is precisely because it’s bad service to clear before everyone’s finished. It’s considered stressful to the customers and they might want to linger over their plates of food for a chat, or pause before they finish the dish. I don’t know what every single diner feels like but I do know front of house/my manager would scold me if I was too hasty clearing everything up. It’s a bit like I find waiting staff checking in on how it’s going when you’re two bites in quite stressful but I understand that’s how they’ve been told to do their job.

I don’t always follow example 9 or all of 10 but the rest are fairly standard in my opinion,

Your list is a mixture of basic manners e.g. no phones, talking with mouth full etc., but how you hold cutlery and load food on the fork is about table etiquette in the UK, nothing to do with manners.

Spot on.

But the PP above said it was rude to ask, they should just ‘know’. So they can ask but they are only asking because they already know everyone is finished? How does that work? I think you lot don’t even know how these stupid rules work!

It’s bad service (I wouldn’t go so far as rude) to ask when people haven’t finished eating, which is why it’s helpful, particularly in a busy establishment, to have a signal that’s fairly universally recognised. It doesn’t have to be the same one let alone all the details like the precise angle of the cutlery, but anything like pushing your plate away, putting your cutlery on the plate with tines up, even leaning back in your chair can help staff pick up on it being appropriate to clear. There are so many ways to clue staff in that you’re done with the meal. It’s a bit like you can ask for the bill by just putting your hand up, catching their eye or making a writing motion, they all work.

I don’t think it’s rude for the server to ask if you are finished. What I do think it’s rude, and seeing it happen more and more, is if one person at the table is finished and the other still eating, the empty plate is taken away. To me it feels as if they are rushing you out the door and is something I have experienced at both low and high end restaurants

But we have words! We can use words to communicate!! I can be asked ‘Are you finished?’ and reply ‘Yes, thank you very much’. We don’t need dinner plate semaphore, but apparently asking is some sort of heinous social crime! I give up 😂

I don’t know about the PPs who have commented about this issue but it’s not “dining plate semaphore”, it’s part of the job if you’re waiting staff to try to work out whether people might need a refill, whether you need to clear the whole table, if people are eking out their glasses of wine or are frustrated because they want the bill and go home. Nobody has asserted it’s a heinous crime but it’s not the best possible standard of service.

Anyway, I’m sorry to have derailed the thread by accident. I actually had a chat with my dad and he said he would divide “table manners” into manners and etiquette - the former is to be inclusive or practical and the latter is class signifiers and outdated tradition so I would agree with the pp who also made that distinction.

You may well be correct for a certain type of restaurant. When I go out, I don’t mind having to ask wait staff for things; I don’t expect them to read my mind or know what I want based solely on non-verbal cues. I am happy to interact with them verbally and don’t see this as an issue or a sign they aren’t doing their job properly

No one would be judging you for that.

and good manner extends to not judging others (simply because you don’t know about hidden disabilities)

a yet you not only wrote:
But no doubt there will be plenty of posters coming onto say that it’s unfair to judge people for bad table manners- they may have dementia/autism/anxiety
before adding
I hadn’t read the full thread when I posted this, but then scrolled up and lo and behold! - someone three posts up had declared that people shouldn’t judge table manners in case someone has Parkinson’s!

maybe you should think about what you really mean before commenting.

I certainly wouldn't judge anyone for not placing their cutlery correctly on their plates at the end of a meal.

Yes you can use your words. You can also place your knife and fork neatly on your plate.

It's not a human rights issue. There's really no need for people to get so worked up.

"Shovelling" certain items (eg peas) has been confirmed as ok by former royal staff.

Whilst I always eat with my fork in my left hand and knife in the right, I do believe there's a bit of history suggesting there's no official correct way round of holding knife and fork.

True, and plenty of people living in this country have other traditions eg chopsticks or eating with a hand.

I've pretty much taught my kids these mores by imitation, but I'd be surprised if they judged anyone else for doing it differently. It's not that important.

Exactly this!

Its not about teeny tiny pieces, this 'rule' and a fair few of the rules are about ensuring you aren't spreading crumbs, ripping at food, taking mouthfuls that are too big and then spraying people with half chewed food etc.

Why are people insisting the use of the word 'shovel' to describe one way of using a fork is 'loaded' though?

It is an accurate description of that way of using a fork, nothing more (though if people say something like 'shovelling it in'.. then yes, and I see that a lot when people describe the eating habits of folk they believe to be greedy or who are overweight).