In my experience of the French people that I have met, I have come across a lot of racism, from the majority of them.

[sillyme563]

There I said it. I have been married to my French husband now for ten years. I am Muslim and asian.

In the last ten years, I have never heard so much racism as I have in my entire life. Blatant, horrible, disgusting racism - most of it against either black people or Arabs/ Muslims.

'I would never go to South Africa. The safari experience would be good but I don't like black people'
'Gracie's Corner will spoil my child'
'Hijab wearing women are backwards'

ad infinitum.

I just spent the weekend with a couple of our friends from Paris. We walk past two girls in a hijab - cue obligatory conversation about how hijab wearing is wrong. I have to put up with these kinds of comments constantly, from his family and friends, and it's just sad because I have nieces who wear the hijab, and I can't invite them to things where the French are going to be there. I am getting so sick and tired of it, and I just don't have the inclination to be some sort of racial-social justice warrior to argue with all these nasty comments.

here

It depends. In certain areas (like where my parents holiday home is in SW France) then yes, not everyone but a few people are racist, eg if there’s a burglary the immigrants (usually African) or Gipsies are blamed rather than the French people. I actually think it’s deflection away from the locals who are involved in crime.

In our next big city, Bordeaux, racism occurs,but an ex colleague of mine (young man) who had relatives who were black who lived there, visited a lot and said he didn’t find it racist at all, I think he found it more comfortable than parts of London where he was living/working.

I’ve heard French people say rude things about Arabs (generalisation) and black people and hijabs.

Yes, this is the difference between the UK and France.

How long did you live in France for?

@sillyme563 Double standards as Muslim countries demand people visiting from non Muslim countries wear the Jihab. So it is not like people can wear wherever they want. In fact let’s not even start to talk about people trying to get settled for life in those countries. I have little sympathy.

You can disagree against a country fighting to be secular, and making strict laws, In France by the look of it you can loudly demonstrate against anything you are not happy with, but you can't call them racist because they don't make an exception for one specific religion.

You can't call an entire country "racist" because you have been faced with racist individuals.

It's like calling American "racists" since they split up families of refugees crossing their border. As shocking as it was, a huge amount of American citizens fought hard against it.

12 years, HTH

In France they ban the hijab and burqini in certain places but they also ban all symbols of religion. They have a belief that all French people are equal. So they also don’t monitor ethnic minorities for race equality because they believe everyone is equal.

Boris wrote a newspaper article on European views on freedom of religious expression. Everyone took it as racist but he was actually arguing for freedom of religious expression. (And freedom to express non religious beliefs)

The laicite argument is rarely to do with separation of church and state, or religion and state, because I don't ever see this much energy and discussion over the theology behind the religious symbolism of other religions. Where is this amount of airtime for dreadlocks, sheitel, kippah's, crucifixes? Yes these items make an appearance (a perfunctory one) in the national debate but there is nowhere near as much airtime as the hijab. France has a deep colonial past with unresolved generational conflict and the debate about the meaning behind the hijab is beyond the philosophical and legal requirement of laicite and it is a French culture war issue.

Notwithstanding the fact that I say this from lived experience - I don't need to ask women about this at all - racism is alive and well here in the UK, but its not nearly as bad or as frequent as in France. It's like a PP said, its way more overt there. One example: I am glad our lefty guardian reading tote wearing lefty liberals here in this country have the ability to practice acceptance of diversity so that we dont feel othered by every single political group (as with other political groups, but you get the tongue in cheek point I'm making right?). That is not the case in France, because (in my experience) their lefty tote wearers are more aligned with the societal narrative of 'other = bad'.

You can go to many Muslim countries and not be expected to wear the Hijab. In fact I always find it surprising when I see Western women journalists wearing a headscarf in countries where I know it is absolutely not expected of a non Muslim. It is true to say in a lot of countries you cannot acquire citizenship through immigration or asylum.

i live in northern iraq where probably 50% of the muslim population west hijab and the rest don't. I don't think it's racist to disagree with the ideology of the hijab. I know many muslims that disagree with it

My partner is french and he always says that the French are often racist against anyone they perceive as Arab. He says that's one of the things he prefers about the UK , as much less conservative and racist.
I think it's probably about where you go too, as plenty of racists in the UK too, especially in some areas, but he says that french police are just as bad as American police with racial profiling and violence too.

I have like an 80/20 split here. So majority racist. In my experience.

Your experience is being in a family of racists, with "friends" who are racists.

I wouldn't have these people as "friends" personally.

I find it very strange that you choose to hang around with people like that. I don't and I wouldn't. It's giving you a very twisted view of an entire country.

I wouldn't be "friends" and spend time with people making constant and derogatory comments against gay people, to the extend I would have to keep gay family members away, like you are doing with your nieces because they wear a hijab.

So yes, you are more than BU!

Would you stand with them if they openly condemned Rastafarianism?

I dislike everything the hijab stands for and the oppression of women it represents. But I also dislike targeting women for their culture. Muslim women are targeted by both sides - pressured by their communities to cover themselves and pressured by the wider community not to. How about we just leave them alone?

Tolerance is always better than intolerance imo.

That’s a long time to be blind to the racism there…

But at what point did I say it's right for Muslim countries to promote this kind of rule around the 'Jihab'?

I said - it is not the place for anyone, government or individual, to tell women what they can and cannot wear.

Yes in France this means something else and in Afghanistan it means something else - the point is stop telling women what they can and cannot wear, and having a sort of moral relativism over women who choose to wear/ not wear the hijab.

France has a secular state, it also has a strong practicing catholic culture
There are plenty of catholic schools in France but they’re fee-paying.

I think this is a big part of why so many people are willing to take such risks to cross the Channel rather than claim asylum in France. It doesn't get talked about much in the UK because people who are strongly antiracist also tend to be pro-EU types who don't want to acknowledge that our European neighbours might actually have some pretty big flaws.

I am sorry if my experience doesn't fit your narrative and not everyone agrees with generalising statements.

We both agree that some individual are, some aren't.

I disagree that the culture is racist.

You can't call an entire country "racist" because you have been faced with racist individuals

Presumably you’re familiar with the concept of institutional racism. This is not simply about individuals as I’ve already said. Government policies, government led attitudes, institutional attitudes, racist political parties.

Most do

Your experience depends on your mindset and your understanding.

Who said religious schools were banned? Private schools are one thing, most countries have them.

State religious schools that we have here was the issue.

Parents having to send their children to the catchment, sometimes only, state school when it's a religious school is quite common in England, impossible in France.

You married him 🤔😆