Putting house into trust to avoid care home fees

[Winterday1991]

A friend mentioned that her parents had put their property into trust to avoid potential care home fees liability. Is this as simple as she suggests? Would this not be classed as deprivation of assets by the council?

As part of my job a few years ago, I had to visit LA residential homes. I vowed I would save enough to afford a very nice home if and when the time comes.

I couldn't enjoy any money left from my parents knowing they end up in the bare minimum for what? So I can have fun as an adult with money I didn't earn myself? I don't think so and it's the same for kids. If they get something fine, but I won't end up in a urine smelling place.

@clarebear111

I can't see much changing until after the election unfortunately.

You're naive if you think there'll be any significant change after the election.

The care home funding issue has been rumbling for decades. It's nothing new. We had exactly the same problems in the late 90s and early 00s with both mine and OH's grandmas who needed to go into care homes. The choice/standard of care was appalling back then too! Blair/Brown's 13 years of power didn't change the system, so why do you think things will change after the next election??

If some can't afford to live a good life on over double the national average wage, they're doing something wrong and how then can they expect ANYONE to live on less?

Unemployment is £340 a month... A MONTH..

IF someone can't live a great life on £70k, or over £4000 a month, they do t need tax help, they need to live better.

I'd rather taxes go to people with not enough than to go to people with too much who do t utilise it properly. So why someone warning £4000 a month would be jealous and resent someone existing on £340 is beyond me, but they do, and they justify it and try to say,
"Well £70k isn't much..." BULL HONKY

This is my experience too. I'm sorry that your dad and grandmother had to go through this.

I've had two elderly relatives have to move to care homes. One was LD, had never worked, lived in LA sheltered accommodation. Despite the LD, the fact that he needed to use a wheelchair and was in multiple organ failure Social Services were insisting that he return to his second floor flat in a block without a lift. We fought for months to get him the care he needed. He spent six months being shunted from hospital to one step down care home bed, then back to hospital then another step down bed. In the end the council agreed to fund a care home place. Although they did move him between homes as one closed due to lack of funding and another became too expensive and refused to continue to accept council funded residents. If my uncle hadn't had strong and motivated advocates (my sister and I) he would have been sent home to die in his flat without Social Services giving two hoots.

On the other hand my aunty owned her home. This meant that we could chose the care home that best suited her, and was close to home so that her friends and family could visit easily.

Whenever my parents start on about how awful it is that they might have to sell their home for care fees I tell them to remember the two experiences and consider the one they'd prefer for themselves.

Surely in this situation the remaining half of the house will fund the surviving spouse.

I don't know where the idea of two tier care homes comes from, I had a relative in a home paying for care and others in there were being paid for. All received exactly the same care.

Sadly not - you may still end up paying far more than the £86K.

The cap applies only to the personal care part of your bill. The cost of food and accommodation (which is a sizeable part of it) is not capped and you will pay this yourself until you run out of assets.

The devil is always in the detail and there will be little benefit for most people.

Indeed. My MIL lives in a council/HA over 55 place. She was married to a train driver and so would have had more household income than my parents. Last year parents needed a new bathroom, had to find someone to fit it and pay full whack for everything. MIL had hers redone by the council, including a walk-in shower, new fixtures and fittings.

It seems grossly unfair that my parents would have to pay for everything while others pay for nothing. MIL is lovely so I feel guilty typing this but my parents really struggled to be able to buy and keep the house when my DF was made redundant and if it comes to it, it’s like the struggle was for nothing as they’d have to give it up anyway. Well, they wouldn’t, DF would shoot himself before going into a home.

A family member went into a free nursing home, which wasn't very nice. She hated being there, and I could see why. The decor/food/staff/activities were abysmal. Her son ended up moving her into a private home, using her savings. They were told she could stay there, even after they ran out. She loved that private home. It was beautiful and the staff/food were good. They had activities planned for each day (booked externally) and an outing once a month for each group. So aiming for a free home, may not suit your family member. You get what you pay for.

@GETTINGLIKEMYMOTHER my mum was also in an Abbeyfield CH. They were superb with her, very caring and the same care continued when she ran out of money from her house sale and had to be council funded. I was concerned that they might ask me to move her but that was never questioned.

I agree, I should have said if anything changes, it won't happen until after the election.

I suspect this is one of those issues that will continue to be kicked into the long grass.

Not read all PP but I have learnt that there is a big difference between the quality of paid for and unpaid for residential care homes - the latter can be poor and very uncomfortable.

Yes it care cost only, but the hourly rate for one to one care is increasing significantly every year. This cap will still prevent lots of people from using all their life savings ( like they would before) You would have living costs wherever you live so of course they are not included here.

People will also be able to access care at the local authority price structures eventually. So all in all, a better deal than now. But having your own funds will still guarantee choice and control.

Are you being deliberately obtuse? I am agreeing with you on most points but you seem to want to generalise. Your attitude is exactly the same as someone saying ‘all people on benefits are scroungers’. No nuance.

Let me break it down for you. These are the expenses of someone working full time with 2 small kids. I’d say 70k just about covers it. How is this a life of luxury? I’d say it pretty much covers basics.

£1200 rent
£200 council tax
£2000 childcare
£250 bills
£50 petrol
£50 car insurance
£300 groceries

So instead of hating the people who earn that, why don’t you go after the successive governments who have put us in this dire situation?

This is my last reply on this as I don’t think it’s fair to hijack this thread.

Does make you wonder the point in owning a home

There are very few purely paid for homes. The vast majority of people are in homes that have LA and self funded residents and they get the same care. There were homes that won't take people at LA rates so the LA funded can only go there if family can top up circa £500 a week (possibly more). They often have nicer furniture, bigger grounds etc but the care itself is not necessarily better so if you are bed bound etc possibly not worth the extra money.
I've spent a lot of time looking at care homes the past couple of years and the difference in quality isn't always reflected in the price. One of the most expensive we looked at for self funding mum was awful with a massive turnover of staff. The one MIL is in with LA funding is lovely.

It’s worth investigating for tax reasons as well. My partners family have had the house in trust for twenty odd years. Not to try and avoid care home fees but as a way to avoid inheritance tax.

Probably after a lifetime of paying tax.

If you are a high earner right now, paying close to 45% of your salary in tax, using the remaining portion to pay an expensive mortgage on an overpriced house in order to live in the city you work, yes it feels tiring that your asset will them be used to pay for the care you need as an old person.

Appreciate that many people are not net contributors, but for those who are it's v frustrating

tara66, as per my pp, there are hardly any council funded care homes any more anyway.
I can only say that in my mother’s care home there were both self funders and council funded residents, all of whom received exactly the same sort of accommodation - ensuite rooms - and levels of excellent care.

We looked at a lot of care homes before choosing, but very good ones certainly do exist.

In my area it's just the same. My DF went into an excellent home and we didn't pay anything as his needs were medical (heart failure) not social.

In most areas there are no "council run" homes any more.

This is good to hear, and I am glad that your gran and grandad are well cared for.

This was on a thread a while back - I must say I'm none the wiser but so many people tell me they've done it and it was easy:

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/elderly_parents/4869880-person-going-into-care-home-thinks-they-have-avoided-selling-their-house-to-pay-fees?page=18&reply=128912868

But at £1500 (average for an ok home) a week your savings won't go far. Then what? Hopefully you will be allowed to stay put and the state plus the other self funders will pick up the tab, but it isn't guaranteed.
You really need a large pension pot, a property to sell and some savings. Not many people have all those things in place.

Because some people pay taxes all their lives to fund free loaders and it’s now their turn to benefit from what they already paid into.

Whenever my parents start on about how awful it is that they might have to sell their home for care fees I tell them to remember the two experiences and consider the one they'd prefer for themselves.

It's not one or the other though is it?

Not everyone will need long term social care and for the ones who do the options are often the same whether you pay or don't.

Some homes inflate the fees paid by self funding residents to top up the amount paid by the LA for residents who do not have the means to pay for themselves.
We had no objection to my grandma paying for her own care, but it seemed unfair that a proportion of the fees charged were to pay for someone else.especially when grandmas money ran out, there were mutterings about them moving her because there weren't enough self funded residents to pick up the excess needed.
Maybe grandmas money would have lasted longer if 20% of what she was charged didn't cover someone else's fees.
The whole system is unfair, surely as a society we have a duty to look after the vulnerable, without some people paying more than their share, and some avoiding fees altogether, because of sneaky legal trusts