Putting house into trust to avoid care home fees

[Winterday1991]

A friend mentioned that her parents had put their property into trust to avoid potential care home fees liability. Is this as simple as she suggests? Would this not be classed as deprivation of assets by the council?

We are going through this atm (as mentioned in the first post). Mum will get the full amount from Social Care, but, they don’t decide the Care Home - we decide it. We might need to pay “top up” which is fine.

It also depends on whether you want any say on the care you receive. If you can't pay yourself you won't get a choice. My in laws have both been in care which has used their money from house sale. It has meant they could have care where they want and of the standard they want. Not a bad use if their own money in my opinion.

Disabled Facilities Grants re a great idea - you just have to live long enough to come out the other end of the bureaucratic processes!

We might need to pay “top up” which is fine. - but sadly no use to those who have no relatives to top up, or who do not have the means to do so, or simply refuse to..

There are many different housing options for older people. Extra Care housing, independent flats or bungalows, round a central hub where there is support would be my preferred choice. DH and I may need to consider moving in the foreseeable future, we’re both on the wrong side of 70, with some ongoing health problems.

Unfortunately, our home won’t raise enough to buy private retirement housing, and because we are home owners, we are unlikely to qualify for social rented housing. We haven’t the space (or the money) to install a downstairs loo. There are lots of older people who would downsize to the right type of accommodation, if it were available, and affordable. We don’t all own homes worth half a million plus. Research has shown that living in the right kind of housing, with support, reduces the need for many residents to move into care homes. It also reduces hospital bed blocking, where older people can’t be discharged because their homes are unsuitable.

Would he need a diagnosis of some kind, or would he be assessed informally in consultation with his siblings?

They’ve always just accepted it’s how he is.

When they were visiting MiL in hospital the staff seemed to recognise his limited capacity, just through their own interaction, but there’s nothing official and it’s not obvious. Just becomes evident over time.

sorry for derail, OP, and for picking your brain, @Theeyeballsinthesky !

No one in the family talks about anything, so it’s really hard to plan!

Here you go :)

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/globalassets/age-uk/documents/factsheets/fs38_property_and_paying_for_residential_care_fcs.pdf

page 7 - mandatory disregard of property occupied by someone over 60

Remember that under the proposed system, it is only the care element that would be capped at £85k. Board and lodgings would still be paid indefinitely or until the money runs out. It is expected the care element would be one third of the fees. Hence a care home costing £1.5 k a month would charge £500 for care and the rest for board. Therefore large bills would still happen.

Why do some people think they shouldn't pay for drugs and medical services they use?

Well mainly because social care is not part of the NHS services whereas medical care and prescription drugs are.

You want to change that and add social care to free at the point of use NHS services I suggest you vote for a party that proposes that along with the stonking great tax rises needed to pay for it.

I am fully suppportive of a big rise in taxes on assets and inheritance to fund such as thing.

It's also pretty unfair that some people are too poor to have savings or a house. Now those who are rich want to (a) avoid paying for services they are using even though they can afford to and (b) perpetuate inequality by continuing to hoard their money after their death. It's disgustingly greedy.

Councils rarely pursue deprivations of assets prior to the care being needed. BUT if there's no money for care, then you are at the mercy of what the LA can provide. For a lot of LAs that means being moved out of your local authority and in to a cheaper one - making it harder for family to visit. It also massively restricts the choice you it a loved one has over where and what care they get. The LA also only puts people in care homes when keeping them at home safely costs more than residential care so you may be forced to keep a loved one at home longer that you believe is safe or have them move in to care before you think they want or need it.

Care homes cost more like 3k a month surely? £800 a week is a normal amount. That would be offset by state pension and any other pension but still, a lot

Depends where you are. The cheapest care home i know locally is just over £1000 a month and it's frankly horrible. My mum is in a specialist one for compex needs that's £1900 a week. I went to see a possible alternative one that is £1750 a week.

£800 a week is cheap as chips. The cheapest place we saw that I'd have been prepared to send my dad was £1350/week and they had a very long waiting list which he died whilst on (he was on 4 waiting lists when he died).

So you have 2 children under 3 and no partner? Otherwise why is childcare so high? Maybe they are twins I guess
I have to say plenty of people survive on much less. You can probably halve most of those bills if you move somewhere cheaper.
£300 on groceries for 1 adult and 2 babies seems extreme as well.
Our household income is more like 35k for 2 adults, 2 young children, we live within that with no debt, it is possible... We probably spend more on groceries but that is 2 adults and is our one area of luxury really, everything else would be less than half of your costs

We looked at so many care homes when choosing for both FiL and my mother, and from experience, TBH one thing that I wouldn’t put the slightest reliance on, is smart, ‘Homes and Gardens’ decor. IMO it’s often intended to impress relatives who are choosing. Perhaps especially when dementia is involved, cosy and homely are IMO far more important, and cheerful-looking staff. By the same token, how expensive it is, is not an indication of how good the care is going to be.

And I’d dismiss immediately any that ask you to make an appointment just for an initial look around. Of course it’s only right to ring and ask first, but outside meal times (when staff are particularly busy) any good CH should be happy for you to come and look around at any reasonable time.

A fairly basic care home is £1500 a week here. There are still all the issues around lost glasses, clothes, phones, hearing aids, shoes etc. Not enough staff to help with meals and drinks etc. Anything like chiropody, physio, costs extra. Any hospital appointments need transport organised and paid for by relative and resident has to be accompanied by relative. Very expensive and time consuming if wheelchair is required.
It is a huge shock to the system when you need to find a care home for your mum or dad and you realise that the whole situation becomes a very stressful full time job.

I don't think that just because DF or Sm has a house they should b exempt from paying care home fees. I would be interested in how you could do this - if a parent was in hospital Ongoing Care home fees paid for absolutely are harder than hens teeth. DFIL had a house ( worth a very tiny fraction of the £3m mentioned above ) but even though it seemed like he was entitled to a free care home - no ) So house to be sold.

& to be honest I don't disagree with that. Yes he's paid taxes etc , but he had ( some money ) so he goes into the pot with others and until it gets down to the minimum allowed to keep - that's where it goes. people with squllions will just pay the fees. Otherwise - how much would it cost in taxes for those to say - Oh no we're not paying that because we want to save Dad' house for the family.

DSIL an accountant and she would advise again any trust / distribution of money to potentially save on care homes . She also works with HMRC.

I know it sounds like you have paid twice but just be thankful you have the money to choose. I know some people have had lovely Council founded homes - some aren't and I am not in favour of people hiding assets so they / parents don't have to pay - where do you think the money is going to come from to pay for everyone to get free care

OK and breathe

😊

i think a charge goes on the property until the over 60 dies, then the council collect.. my mum rents a house out and the tenant can stay there but the council charges against the value of the house. They will collect when mum dies. She is in a care home at present the fees are £1005 per week

@robbmac, that's not true; if it is the main and only home of a spouse, relative over 60, a carer or a dependent, the home is disregarded from the financial assessment and the person is assessed on income and savings.

The charge on the property is for the deferred payment scheme for the person receiving care when the property is empty, or not occupied by one of the above.

I am pretty sure that the councils will go after them for the money later and probably win.

It's the deferred payment scheme I thought I was referencing ... So do you mean that once the house eventually becomes empty it can be passed to the family via a will or sold .

You are still very reliant on social services if self funding though anyway. They are ultimately responsibility for anyone vulnerable. We are self funders, dad got dementia and eventually my mum could not cope as she was also in her 80s. He was too unwell to know he needed a care home. We had to beg and after being fobbed off and gaslight for years by ss, he was sectioned not once but three times. I even forced them to assess my mother as a carer because it was so unsafe at home. It happened because he ended up being admitted to hospital and was unable to cope even there he was so out of touch with reality and violent. The care home assessed he needed three carers at any one time but social wanted my elderly mum to do it all alone including lifting him and thought that was safe. It was disgusting how we were treated. They are even less interested if you are self funding.

Obviously it was different in your case - your poor mum and dad! - but I have to say that we never needed to involve SS at all. We knew perfectly well what our DM’s needs were (she had pretty bad dementia by then) and were able to choose a very nice care home and fund it from her own resources.