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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think teachers should wear body cams

296 replies

Ffs555 · 17/10/2023 21:19

Rail staff are wearing them, Wetherspoons staff had them on when I went in, it's becoming more common luckily.
I know it isn't a foolproof solution but I think it would stop so many behavioural incidents.
There are signs up in many public facing workplaces saying abuse won't be tolerated, yet it seems teachers/support staff are expected to put up with it 'because they're just kids'.
I used to be a teacher, was threatened by a pupil, he got half a day in internal exclusion and that was it. I had a year 11 pupil make death threats about another teacher in front of me.
I've had another year 11 male pupil walk up to me and grab the mouse out of my hand when I was on the pc.
However have got off lightly compared to many teachers. Still, we're sworn at constantly and verbally abused.
I have left teaching unfortunately due to the behaviour, my new role is much less stressful.
You practically have to bring a weapon into a school to get permanently excluded, schools don't like to permanently exclude due to costs and reputation.
We used to have a very difficult pupil who brought in a fake weapon one day. The headteacher himself said unfortunately it wasn't a real one, otherwise we could have excluded him permanently.
Anyway, I don't know what the solution is, all this restorative conversation stuff doesn't work. Kids don't care about a detention or even a day's exclusion in a lot of cases.

OP posts:
Sherrystrull · 19/10/2023 08:17

OldChinaJug · 19/10/2023 07:15

I teach UKS2 so 9-11 year olds. My year group this year is lovely. Usual issues with persistent low level disruption from a small number but it's a breeze compared to what I've dealt with previously.

The problem is that, in many cases, we know (or have a good idea of) the root causes of persistently violent behaviour - it's usually unmet SEND that we simply don't have the resources to manage in mainstream school because of the rigours of the timetable/curriculum, expectations in primary school, unsuitable staff:pupil ratios or limited space. Or it's a result of ACES - parents in prison, drug abuse, physical/emotional/sexual abuse which requires years of intensive therapy to address - not something a class teacher can resolve in a 5 min chat at lunchtime.

We, as many schools do, pay to bring in psychotherapists, play therapists, counsellors etc. But it's a drop in the ocean. We have nurture groups and a robust behaviour policy but I am also expected to get a % of my child to GD. I have children with EHCPs who are entitled to 121 support (which we don't have the staffing for) who get 321 support instead for an hour a day so we have to manage their educational needs within class. Whilst also supporting the children who struggle to access the curriculum due to EAL, generally low ability without SEND. I don't have a TA and haven't for 4 years.

This year, I haven't had, nor do I expect, violent behaviour from any of my children but last year was a very different matter. I was physically and/or verbally assaulted on an a daily basis. There are parents we can't speak to alone because of their behaviour and threats towards us.

Nothing is done because the bottom line is every child has the right to an education. Even the children who behave violently. That's why there is the push to not exclude. The evidence required to support an exclusion is immense. We have to evidence that we have done absolutely everything we could have done to prevent it. Due to the lack of funding/resources, there is inevitably more that could have theoretically been done but little that could practically have been done. So many exclusions aren't upheld anyway.

We had children last year who would attack teachers, attack their peers, racially abuse staff and other children, trash the classrooms, cause lessons to he abandoned and classroom evacuated.

Excluding is unpopular because where do they go? There aren't enough alternative provisions for them to get a more suitable school place; it's just passing the problem on to a different school, different adults and different children. It doesn't solve the problem. Or a new school can't be found so they spend ll day at home with the adults and in the environment that has caused their issues in the first place and that's a safeguarding risk to them.

The problem is regarded as beginning and ending with schools.

I have always said that I would report to the police if I was seriously assaulted by a child or parent (we have had parents who would also trash classrooms and make threats of physical violence towards staff) but its difficult because we have to keep the needs and rights of the child at the centre of everything we do. And involving the police would be seen as a hostile move.

I don't know whether that would be viewed differently at secondary school where the students are nearing adulthood but I suspect not.

I've worked previously in an alternative provision and they don't see the same level of violent behaviour because the whole school infrastructure is set up to manage it. Small classes, large staff:pupil ratios. I worked in one where any disruption would be dealt with by immediate removal of that child from class. We had walkie talkies. In mainstream schools, you request support and it doesn't come because there can be 5 members of staff already dealing with other serious incidents. So you and your class are left to deal with it alone unless you can send a child to another classroom for help when their teacher will allow your entire class to be evacuated to their classroom meaning learning is disrupted for two classes.

I know de-escaltion techniques. Sometimes it works but there are some children who actively resist. Some who will disengage md react further when they realise they are starting to calm down!

And we are constantly reminded that all children have a right to an education regardless of how distasteful we find their behaviour. We're expected to just take it ad deal with it. Bruises and scratches are part of the job.

Absolutely brilliant post. What you have said rings so true in my experience.

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 08:40

This attitude has to stop:

'There are parents we can't speak to alone because of their behaviour and threats towards us...every child has the right to an education...we have to keep the needs and rights of the child at the centre of everything we do. And involving the police would be seen as a hostile move...we are constantly reminded that all children have a right to an education regardless of how distasteful we find their behaviour.'

Teacher's agreeableness, conscientiousness and compassion is being manipulated to within an inch of your lives to the extent that you endure abuse. This wouldn't happen to a male-dominated profession. This isn't victim-blaming, it's a simple fact that teachers, collectively, actually have the power to change these policies and no one else is going to do it. They just have to be willing to cope with being called mean and show some solidarity with each other. I think most teachers (and the unions) are actually sympathetic to the ideology behind these policies, or at least are terrified of being called uncaring, which is why they won't organize to end it.

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 19/10/2023 09:00

100% in agreement. How on earth have we got to the stage where its 'of course nothing should happen about the physical/verbal/sexual abuse from Timmy, and that he broke Claire's nose/Ms Harbottles wrist and caused £5k worth of damage to the school. How dreadful would it be for him to have consequences for this poor child. What is the school doing wrong to him! Oh he's in class tomorrow again'.

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 09:07

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 19/10/2023 09:00

100% in agreement. How on earth have we got to the stage where its 'of course nothing should happen about the physical/verbal/sexual abuse from Timmy, and that he broke Claire's nose/Ms Harbottles wrist and caused £5k worth of damage to the school. How dreadful would it be for him to have consequences for this poor child. What is the school doing wrong to him! Oh he's in class tomorrow again'.

Do teachers discuss this among themselves in staffrooms? Do they ever talk about why the unions don't do anything about it?

MyGooseisTotallyLoose · 19/10/2023 09:20

I'm not a teacher so not sure, none of my teacher friends have ever mentioned individual pupils (so no shouting about breach of poor Timmys rights) these stories I hear via other people's dc who are in school and say that Timmy is quite clear he thinks his behaviours great and he's untouchable! I don't know about teacher unions but i find the health unions aren't particularly great either when it comes to similar situations with violence and aggression from patients and families.

Mydpisgrumpierthanyours · 19/10/2023 09:21

Can teachers not refuse to have children in their class?
What would happen if teachers did this?

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 10:00

Mydpisgrumpierthanyours · 19/10/2023 09:21

Can teachers not refuse to have children in their class?
What would happen if teachers did this?

It sounds like they'd basically be fired. After being blamed for failing to manage them, guilt-tripped about them not being able to help it, and brow-beaten about the primary importance of their right to education over the teacher's right to a safe working environment.

SoShallINever · 19/10/2023 10:06

Highlyflavouredgravy · 17/10/2023 21:33

So teachers will have absolutely no privacy during the day?

No No No No

Thisxan awful idea that would only make life 100% harder for classroom staff

Totally disagree. Good teachers will have nothing to hide and everything to gain.
DH taught until retirement last year and says CCTV would protect staff and pupils.

I also feel there is a role for it in some hospital departments, NICU, A and E, and some Out Patient departments.

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 10:12

If there are cameras in classrooms it works both ways op

  • did the teacher make the icntact and grey every student?
  • js teacher checking in on send students regularly and using the agreed support strategies like visuals?
  • is there an appropriate mix of student and teacher talk time?
  • are adhd students given movement breaks?

I don't think any teachers want to be monitored this closely but if they were and all these things did happen more regularly I think that behaviour would improve drastically

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 10:14

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 10:12

If there are cameras in classrooms it works both ways op

  • did the teacher make the icntact and grey every student?
  • js teacher checking in on send students regularly and using the agreed support strategies like visuals?
  • is there an appropriate mix of student and teacher talk time?
  • are adhd students given movement breaks?

I don't think any teachers want to be monitored this closely but if they were and all these things did happen more regularly I think that behaviour would improve drastically

Eye contact *

  • greet Every Student
SoShallINever · 19/10/2023 10:23

The high school that my DCs attended has now got a policy of giving ex service personnel priority for classroom assistant roles. They have several ex Army soldiers there and it's working really well.
They have set up an after school cadet group, command respect and are a positive role model for the kids without a positive father figure in their lives.

Sherrystrull · 19/10/2023 10:24

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 10:12

If there are cameras in classrooms it works both ways op

  • did the teacher make the icntact and grey every student?
  • js teacher checking in on send students regularly and using the agreed support strategies like visuals?
  • is there an appropriate mix of student and teacher talk time?
  • are adhd students given movement breaks?

I don't think any teachers want to be monitored this closely but if they were and all these things did happen more regularly I think that behaviour would improve drastically

Are you a teacher?

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 10:30

I also think that teachers should be given much more planning time to prepare resources needed for lessons with challenging students and to be able to debrief as it takes such a strong emotional toll. Trained support adults should be available to be called in if teachers need back up and support

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 10:32

SoShallINever · 19/10/2023 10:23

The high school that my DCs attended has now got a policy of giving ex service personnel priority for classroom assistant roles. They have several ex Army soldiers there and it's working really well.
They have set up an after school cadet group, command respect and are a positive role model for the kids without a positive father figure in their lives.

Imagine a society that needs to put ex-Army people into its classrooms. I'm happy that's helping, but something is seriously wrong and getting worse.

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 10:33

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 10:30

I also think that teachers should be given much more planning time to prepare resources needed for lessons with challenging students and to be able to debrief as it takes such a strong emotional toll. Trained support adults should be available to be called in if teachers need back up and support

Teachers shouldn't need to 'debrief' or get therapy to do their jobs. They were not intended to be emotional support animals.

FrippEnos · 19/10/2023 10:57

SoShallINever · 19/10/2023 10:06

Totally disagree. Good teachers will have nothing to hide and everything to gain.
DH taught until retirement last year and says CCTV would protect staff and pupils.

I also feel there is a role for it in some hospital departments, NICU, A and E, and some Out Patient departments.

CCTV is fine but everybody should be wary of it.
Bad/poor SLT and Headteachers will use it to bully and get rid of staff that they don't like.

OldChinaJug · 19/10/2023 12:46

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 10:00

It sounds like they'd basically be fired. After being blamed for failing to manage them, guilt-tripped about them not being able to help it, and brow-beaten about the primary importance of their right to education over the teacher's right to a safe working environment.

Yep.

MrsHamlet · 19/10/2023 20:12

Mydpisgrumpierthanyours · 19/10/2023 09:21

Can teachers not refuse to have children in their class?
What would happen if teachers did this?

No we can't. Students have a right to be educated.

bombastix · 19/10/2023 20:36

@Unexpectedlysinglemum - you know that you can pay for education and you wouldn't get half of your list. This is about behaviour standards failing at home, and then this ruins the education of other children.

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 20:42

@bombastix yes kids are coming from increasingly troubled homes- times are tougher than they've been in a long time. Schools can't do a lot about this though but they can give time training and support to their staff. Comprehensive schools need to meet the needs of all of society's children including those with send and from chaotic homes - it's not good enough to say teachers shouldn't have to deal with those kids. They should go and teach in selective
Schools if they only want well behaved scholars

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 20:42

bombastix · 19/10/2023 20:36

@Unexpectedlysinglemum - you know that you can pay for education and you wouldn't get half of your list. This is about behaviour standards failing at home, and then this ruins the education of other children.

Ps it's quite a basic list of quality first teaching which all teachers should be doing but most don't

bombastix · 19/10/2023 20:47

I think you seem unrealistic; whatever you may want, an education sector that is underfunded and has a shortage of teachers won't provide your list.

A lot of what you describe is what parents do. Not teachers

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 20:48

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 20:42

@bombastix yes kids are coming from increasingly troubled homes- times are tougher than they've been in a long time. Schools can't do a lot about this though but they can give time training and support to their staff. Comprehensive schools need to meet the needs of all of society's children including those with send and from chaotic homes - it's not good enough to say teachers shouldn't have to deal with those kids. They should go and teach in selective
Schools if they only want well behaved scholars

It's nothing whatsoever to do with 'tough times'. Britain has suffered far tougher times economically than it's in right now, as have other countries, and children attacking teachers was not the result. Teachers have the same entitlement to a safe and dignified working environment as everyone else.

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 20:49

@Pollyputhekettleon but they do reach challenging kids. Just like doctors treat challenging patients and the housing officers deal with challenging renters. If you work in the public sector providing a service to the community you can't just pick the easy well behaved people to provide that service too. So we should accept that reality and provide appropriate support training and planning time to teachers.

And if we want to blame the rubbish parents we should vote for political parties that will invest in social workers and early help and childrens centres etc etc to help the parents who are finding eveything a challenge

Pollyputhekettleon · 19/10/2023 21:03

Unexpectedlysinglemum · 19/10/2023 20:49

@Pollyputhekettleon but they do reach challenging kids. Just like doctors treat challenging patients and the housing officers deal with challenging renters. If you work in the public sector providing a service to the community you can't just pick the easy well behaved people to provide that service too. So we should accept that reality and provide appropriate support training and planning time to teachers.

And if we want to blame the rubbish parents we should vote for political parties that will invest in social workers and early help and childrens centres etc etc to help the parents who are finding eveything a challenge

Doctors and everyone else are also entitled to safe and dignified working environments. I'd fully support the right of any doctor or nurse to refuse to treat a violent or abusive patient. Teaching is completely different. Nobody dies if you refuse to teach them. You absolutely can and should refuse to teach any abusive or violent child.

Parents are not simply rubbish because they're 'finding everything a challenge'. This is just more of the same ideology that turns perpetrators into victims and treats everyone as hapless victims. And why parents are rubbish is, again, not teachers' problem. It's none of their business. They, and the nonviolent children, shouldn't have to deal with the consequences.

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