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Original poster

Private school vs private anything educational

771 replies

stopitstopitnooow · 17/10/2023 20:38

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with:

Buying houses in expensive catchment areas
Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching
Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE

(Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians)

I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
BouncingJAS · 10/12/2023 02:47

@Papyrophile

You are actually surprised by that?

The UK (in the general sense) has masses of people that have become dependent on state support (they get more in tax benefits than they ever paid in). Its 53% now (a rise from 41% a few decades ago).

What that trend inexorably does is create a "crabs in a barrel" mentality in the masses that will then cause them to turn their attention to the people "who have so much" eventually once they reach critical mass.

What these people continually fail to understand is that thier actions are making them poorer in the aggregate sense. And that is the truly tragic part they don't see and/or understand.

The optimal solution to the education problem has already been posted by a few people: there is a huge variance between the worst performing state schools and the best ones. Just raising the worst schools to the average via improved public investment would yield sizeable economic benefits and improved educational outcomes.

Adding VAT to private school fees will achieve little because you don't tackle the main problems in education:

Bad Parenting (which produces dysfunctional children who materially disrupt the education of the average state educated child).

And you have precisely zero effect on the networks that develop priviledge. The folks that exist in these networks are in the 1%, and for them the extra VAT is a rounding error in income. The only people you will damage are the aspirational middle class parents that are investing in the future of their children.

And thats when we are back to the "crabs in a barel mentality" that is so pervasive now in the UK and in MN.

EmpressoftheMundane · 10/12/2023 13:50

Quite, @BouncingJAS

The most rational thing to do asa society is to subsidise what you want more of. It would make more sense to offer a tax break on private school fees.

Obviously private schools are doing a better job by a raft of objective measures, and the bleating about them on mumsnet only reinforces that conclusion. So why not enable more British DC to benefit from them while simultaneously saving the tax payer ~7K/yr per child. There are many areas of education and children’s mental health crying out for more funding.

Politics focussed on keeping other people down so they don’t get ahead of me and make me feel frustrated and bad about myself is a downward spiral. It just creates less for everyone with fewer and fewer people producing enough surplus to share across the group.

Redistribution is important in a civilised society, but productivity is foundational.

Londiniumrocks · 10/12/2023 14:43

Our current government are all almost exclusively privately educated.
Says it all really.

DdraigGoch · 10/12/2023 16:04

Londiniumrocks · 10/12/2023 14:43

Our current government are all almost exclusively privately educated.
Says it all really.

Liz Truss was state-educated. What does that say?

Papyrophile · 10/12/2023 16:42

Frankly, it suggests that state schools exist to keep most children occupied and safe while their parents work for the machine, until they are taught just enough and become old enough to join it. Only a few surf the wave to achieve better than their parents. Some will have looks or charm or talent, or a driving ambition or be wildly intelligent. That part is unpredictable.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:09

It's educational apartheid. I had a fantastic state education. Top 20 UK State school. 2-4 children attending Cambridge or Oxford. My best friend went to Cambridge. 2 computer rooms filled with the newest and highest spec PCs in the 90s.

I learnt French, Spanish, German, Italian. In Year 12, I studied Law and Latin GCSE. I've 14 GCSEs, 4 A-Levels (AAB)and a Distinction in Business GNVQ. The GNVQ was a "fun" course. I had piano and violin lessons in school.

I look in horror at the little my children are learning. I don't think any of my children has come within earshot of a wind instrument let alone played one. I doubt they've ever touched a glockenspiel or learnt that there are 4 beats in a bar.

I don't want to continue living in the UK. I want more opportunities for my children and England is not offering state children that.

We are a few miles from a HMC (Headmaster's Conference) school. It has a pool, & regular sport. There are many obese children at my kids school. One child struggled to find a 50 inch blazer when she turned 11!

My primary took us swimming every week in the 90s. Now it's 5 swimming sessions (am or pm only) per academic year.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:13

One is General Studies A-level - also a B. Not many Unis accepted it.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:16

@Papyrophile Maintaining and perpetuating the status quo. Don't let the proletariat advance!

blacksax · 10/12/2023 17:17

Maybe it is because some parents of dc at private school are so insufferably smug about it, and like to rub it in at every opportunity.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:17

I've a relative who's smug as her child attends a local private school.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:18

@DdraigGoch Was the lettuce privately educated?

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:19

Londiniumrocks · 10/12/2023 14:43

Our current government are all almost exclusively privately educated.
Says it all really.

Are you stating that they're superior? By virtue of their HMC school status?

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:24

BouncingJAS · 10/12/2023 02:47

@Papyrophile

You are actually surprised by that?

The UK (in the general sense) has masses of people that have become dependent on state support (they get more in tax benefits than they ever paid in). Its 53% now (a rise from 41% a few decades ago).

What that trend inexorably does is create a "crabs in a barrel" mentality in the masses that will then cause them to turn their attention to the people "who have so much" eventually once they reach critical mass.

What these people continually fail to understand is that thier actions are making them poorer in the aggregate sense. And that is the truly tragic part they don't see and/or understand.

The optimal solution to the education problem has already been posted by a few people: there is a huge variance between the worst performing state schools and the best ones. Just raising the worst schools to the average via improved public investment would yield sizeable economic benefits and improved educational outcomes.

Adding VAT to private school fees will achieve little because you don't tackle the main problems in education:

Bad Parenting (which produces dysfunctional children who materially disrupt the education of the average state educated child).

And you have precisely zero effect on the networks that develop priviledge. The folks that exist in these networks are in the 1%, and for them the extra VAT is a rounding error in income. The only people you will damage are the aspirational middle class parents that are investing in the future of their children.

And thats when we are back to the "crabs in a barel mentality" that is so pervasive now in the UK and in MN.

What on earth are you on about crabs for?

Taxing private schools will put more money into the national coffers. Money that can be spent on state schools.

BouncingJAS · 10/12/2023 17:42

@DragonMama3

£1bn in extra "tax" will do nothing for state schools. And thats a one off short term increase. It is not every year.

So once again:

Why do you people insist on lying to yourselves?

£1bn is a rounding error. As was discussed during Covid, the education sector needs about £15bn just to catch up. Its probably even more now due inflation.

Just like the Tories throw red meat at their supporters regarding immigration restrictions (which wont work and will make matters worse) Labour is now throwing red meat at its own supporters via the "lets add VAT to private school" fees.

You are just the opposite side of the same coin.

None of these reactionary policies will ever work because you never address the root causes of the various problems the UK faces.

The only thing you will end up accomplishing with your mentality is to make people poorer as you will just have the same problems as before, only this time with larger class sizes.

The politics of envy is corrosive to the UK as a whole. Never seen this in any other country with private schools.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:47

It's £1 billion. Have you been inside a state primary school recently? Any extra will help.

Were you privately educated?

I'm not envious. I'm devastated for the millions of children who aren't getting a decent education.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 10/12/2023 17:53

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:47

It's £1 billion. Have you been inside a state primary school recently? Any extra will help.

Were you privately educated?

I'm not envious. I'm devastated for the millions of children who aren't getting a decent education.

Apparently it's being ring-fenced to supply online mental health counselling in schools...

However, the extra places that they will need to find for the children who will now opt for the state rather than private schools will almost certainly offset most of that £1 billion.

I will be very interested to see how much the lawyers fees are going to cost the country when the policy ends up tied up in the courts for years. Which private schools are you applying it to? Private SEN schools? The Royal Ballet School? The Purcell School? Ker-ching...

Meanwhile there will be children with no options who lose places at decent comprehensives and grammars because those who are just-priced-out of private will target those instead.

BouncingJAS · 10/12/2023 17:56

@DragonMama3

I was educated in international schools (in several countries - UK/US/Canada/Norway)

That puts me in a unique position to be able to compare and contrast what is going on in the UK vs peer countries.

What the UK needs is massive public investment into education. I am talking £15bn extra per year. This is what the Tories have eroded over the last 15 years: real, sustainable investment into education.

£1bn "gimmicks" based on the politics of envy will do precisely bupkis at this point.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 17:57

Didn't we have investment with the academies?

Baconisdelicious · 10/12/2023 18:04

State schools should be so good that there is no need for private education

but there will always be people who want something different. Doesn’t matter how good the state sector is, people will want more music or more sport or more science or more drama or more support for Sen…..and will be prepared to pay for it. So private schools, one way or another, will always exist, even if all state schools reach whatever standard it is you want them to reach.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 18:10

The crab analogy originates from a Filipino journalist Ninotchka Rosca in a 1987 interview in the Philippine news. Rosca argued that the generally collectivist Filipino culture disapproves of individual success as arrogant and deplorable.

How similar do you assume the British populace is too the Filipino culture? We live in a vibrant multi-ethnic society and have many different cultural approaches to education that aren't homogenous. Probably the biggest difference is the concept of the family in British and Filipino culture. In the Philippines most people live as part of an extended family. Everyone looks after each other. Old people are cared for in the family, rather than being put into homes. In the UK, the elderly are placed into homes.

I don't think envy is at play. It's more genuine concern for schools that are unsafe (RAAC), children that aren't passing even GCSE English and Maths. Can anyone afford to invest in state schools? I see many shutting daily and towns like a ghost town.

talkingteapots · 10/12/2023 18:12

In my experience and perhaps with the school I chose for my daughters (which I pulled them out of); I felt like I was lining the pockets of the staff.

The older teachers were very traditional and didn't let the children be children.

Now mine are in state secondary schools, doing just fine.

We live in a wealthy area, no houses under 1.2 million and it seems the families that send their children to the private schools are the ones from the Housing Estates. Our works constantly, tirelessly to send his daughter to private school...

Yes, I could send my children to private school tomorrow and we'd all still be fed, have cars and a nice home, but I don't see why.. everyone at state school seems nice and my daughters grades are good!

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 18:12

Baconisdelicious · 10/12/2023 18:04

State schools should be so good that there is no need for private education

but there will always be people who want something different. Doesn’t matter how good the state sector is, people will want more music or more sport or more science or more drama or more support for Sen…..and will be prepared to pay for it. So private schools, one way or another, will always exist, even if all state schools reach whatever standard it is you want them to reach.

We all want better, more dynamic, more successful. If you can't afford it - and at 31k per annum not many can!

I don't begrudge private school existence. I just wish state schools were afforded charitable status.

DragonMama3 · 10/12/2023 18:14

My eldest attended state Grammar school. It was very traditional. He's doing very well with things he learnt.

Circe7 · 10/12/2023 18:19

@DragonMama3
State schools have better tax treatment than charitable private schools. They don’t pay corporation tax and can reclaim their VAT. Private schools can’t currently reclaim most of the VAT they incur.