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Original poster

Private school vs private anything educational

771 replies

stopitstopitnooow · 17/10/2023 20:38

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with:

Buying houses in expensive catchment areas
Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching
Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE

(Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians)

I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

OP posts:
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10
ACGTHelix · 29/10/2023 21:11

Papyrophile · 29/10/2023 20:35

Possibly I don't @KellyanneConway . So do explain it to me in words of one syllable. As that is clearly all you think I can manage.

To avoid the pitfalls associated with eugenics, it is essential to adopt a nuanced perspective that considers both genetic and environmental influences on traits. Recognizing the complexity of human development and the interactions between genes and the environment is crucial for promoting ethical, inclusive, and scientifically sound discussions about inherited traits.

In essence, the caution against not recognizing the limitations of inherited genetics is a reminder to approach discussions about human traits with sensitivity, acknowledging the multifaceted nature of genetics and the importance of ethical considerations in shaping our views on heritability.

MasterBeth · 29/10/2023 21:27

Papyrophile · 29/10/2023 19:21

There is nothing eugenic about anything I have written in this thread @KellyanneConway . I am familiar with the arguments. I am not a eugenicist. There are clever people and stupid ones. Intelligence is inherited. Mostly.

And I do not troll.

Intelligence is not inherited.

The experience you talk about re: food and culinary skills has nothing to do with inherited traits and everything to do with upbringing.

Daisyincopper · 29/10/2023 21:37

How can you say intelligence is not inherited @MasterBeth? It has been shown that it is determined by genetics to a fairly large degree.
Obviously there's an environmental influence too.

honoldbrist · 29/10/2023 21:41

Circe7 · 29/10/2023 19:57

@Labraradabrador
Yes I think what’s frustrating about this debate is that those who are anti private schools want to force their view of what constitutes a good education on everyone and impose it on every child regardless of that child’s needs.

I was told at one point in this thread that choice isn’t important. Someone used the term “standardised” which sounds deeply depressing for me.

Of course choice isn’t important if you are advocating a state system which exactly conforms to your view of what makes a good education and which would work for your child. It’s very important if you have different views on education than the state or a child who doesn’t get on with the system for whatever reason. I would love more choice to be available for more children however.

And even if state education broadly conformed to my views, I wouldn’t want to give the state the power to educate every child with no right to opt out. That sounds very authoritarian and dangerous.

And even more frustratingly, there’s acknowledgment that the private sector is doing something right in terms of giving their students an advantage but no willingness to change anything about the state sector to replicate it. And the solution is instead to destroy some of the best schools we have in order to apparently improve the parts which aren’t working.

I cannot think of another policy area where this would be entertained as a credible solution to the issue of part of the sector underperforming.

Couldn't agree more.

fungibletoken · 29/10/2023 22:23

Guardian800 · 29/10/2023 10:42

For what it’s worth - my solution would be to nationalise all the private schools bringing them back in to the state sector - have a very clear funding vision of 10-20 years - almost like the way Harvard in the US use a combination of private and public money to create this world class education sector.

It could work very well. Then you would no longer have this terrible divide - I realise life is not a utopia but by having true equality in educational terms would bring out the best

Would bring out the best in whom? Overwhelmingly not girls - the studies are crystal clear on that.

I'll never forget the relentless bullying (verbal and physical) you'd get from boys at our local state primary just for answering a few questions correctly in class. It was utterly miserable. If I'd gone to the connected secondary school who knows where I'd be now. My wonderful working class dad clearly felt the same and sat with me every weekend doing practice 11+ papers with me until I got into the local grammar school.

Now I have a DD if I could save her from my primary school experience I'd do it with no hesitation. It will not her responsibility to try to bring up the standard. But funnily enough it's people like us for whom VAT will probably make the difference between private school being affordable or out of reach. So much for social mobility, eh!

DdraigGoch · 30/10/2023 00:08

VisiblyNot25 · 28/10/2023 22:35

I genuinely don’t in any way judge you - or any other parent - for making whatever decisions they want for their own kids education.

But on a societal level, I do believe private schools create an uneven playing field. And I think governments should try & level that playing field & one way to do that is by using the money raised through VAT to improve the funding situation in our state schools where the vast, vast majority of children in our society are educated.

Show quote history

The proposed hike in VAT will not result in any appreciable increase in funding for state schools.

DdraigGoch · 30/10/2023 00:47

Alargeoneplease89 · 29/10/2023 11:30

Ofcourse they are existing to make a profit you don't pay thousands for nothing, it's a service the exact same if you pay for private healthcare.... ofcourse you pay tax for a better service.
It's a two tier system - why should you not pay tax?

Only 1% of places are given to poorer children.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/education/2023/mar/12/uk-private-schools-rush-to-expand-overseas-as-profits-soar

I'm not against private schools but it's insane to think there are any that are charity status.

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If you have charitable status then you CAN'T make a profit. It's not allowed, any surplus must be reinvested in the organisation.

Papyrophile · 30/10/2023 08:55

In the latest episode of idiocy on the part of a local education authority (Wiltshire), the powers that be are refusing to allow an outstanding state primary school to expand via James Dyson's £6m donation for a science centre, on land donated by Persimmon, because it might affect the viability of less high performing schools in the county.

There really isn't an appetite to improve education across the board; only to top the tall poppies.

Another76543 · 30/10/2023 09:54

Papyrophile · 30/10/2023 08:55

In the latest episode of idiocy on the part of a local education authority (Wiltshire), the powers that be are refusing to allow an outstanding state primary school to expand via James Dyson's £6m donation for a science centre, on land donated by Persimmon, because it might affect the viability of less high performing schools in the county.

There really isn't an appetite to improve education across the board; only to top the tall poppies.

Unfortunately a lot of politicians seem to think that the best education position is one where every school is just average. There is no desire to strive for anything better. As long as a school is “good enough”, let’s not aim to improve it as it might be unfair on others.

listsandbudgets · 30/10/2023 10:05

Alo3Vera · 17/10/2023 21:00

There is no such thing as “ amazing grammars”. They are just schools ( often with high levels of lazy teaching) containing kids easier to teach because the top 10 % have been creamed off. Often they’re even more underfunded and classes are just as massive None will give you the unfair advantages that private schools do.

Under funded? are you joking?

dd is at a grammar and frankly the only difference between it and a private school seems to be shorter holidays and no fees. the teachers are all superb

DS didn't make it in and i promise you his comprehensive is a whole different experience!

that said DDs school is part of an old foundation which i suspect subsidises the school

Onethingatatime23 · 30/10/2023 10:07

State schools should be so good that there is no need for private education.

Good education is one of the most important and basic things for the state to provide, it's not akin to choosing a big car or choosing to fly first class.

Nutellaonall · 30/10/2023 10:17

Parents want kids to go to schools with other kids from good families. It isn’t hugely about the quality of the education at the school. That’s why church schools are so popular. It’s not because that think a religious education is better. It is because the sort of families that will go the extra mile to get their kid into a church school ( ie go to church twice a month) are the sort of families that will read to their child every night, encourage them to do homework and be more stable family units. They aren’t necessarily richer. This means that peers around them will be from good families which means their child is less likely to take the wrong path. It is every parents worst nightmare for a child to get in with the wrong group and throw their life away. Even the most liberal parents can understand that surely.

OhCrumbsWhereNow · 30/10/2023 12:05

shockwaze · 29/10/2023 17:31

You have one in state and one in private?!

Get ready for resentful adults

Show quote history

Why?

My youngest sibling went to a top public school, I went to a super-selective state grammar, another sibling went to a comprehensive (after hating the grammar).

Never occurred to me to resent any of it - we all went to the schools that we were best suited to.

DD is at a comprehensive. Even if I won the lottery tomorrow I wouldn't move her - we looked at some incredible private schools, but her current school is definitely the best fit for her.

DdraigGoch · 30/10/2023 14:55

jellyfrizz · 30/10/2023 12:36

Oh, like academy chains that aren’t allowed to make a profit?

https://amp.theguardian.com/education/2016/jun/12/academy-schools-cash-cow-business

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Nothing like academy chains, charities are strictly regulated.

whatkatydid2013 · 01/11/2023 08:03

stopitstopitnooow · 17/10/2023 20:57

Should you pay VAT on uni fees then? Swimming lessons? Football coaching?

Show quote history

If classes are privately run for profit you already do pay VAT. We do for my daughters’ art classes, kayaking/paddle boarding lessons & at one point their swimming lessons at a private pool. On the other hand they’re swimming lessons at the local council pool, their drama classes, rugby and scouting don’t incur VAT but all those are run on a not for profit basis.

Papyrophile · 01/11/2023 21:38

Yep, it's totally daft. This exact situation was the subject of my post a couple of days ago. Dyson WANTS to donate money for a science centre and the jobsworths turn it down because it will draw pupils from smaller rural schools. Do we, does anyone, want a functioning economy? Or do we want to play stupid politics?

ACGTHelixA · 01/11/2023 22:21

Papyrophile · 01/11/2023 21:38

Yep, it's totally daft. This exact situation was the subject of my post a couple of days ago. Dyson WANTS to donate money for a science centre and the jobsworths turn it down because it will draw pupils from smaller rural schools. Do we, does anyone, want a functioning economy? Or do we want to play stupid politics?

Absolutely, it's about maximizing the impact of the donation. In essence, prioritizing one cause over another without a thoughtful approach is no different from private schools drawing customers away. The whole situation just strikes me as rather peculiar.

BibbleandSqwauk · 02/11/2023 09:32

I suppose in the case of Dyson though, he could have opted for a standalone science centre that schools visit rather than attaching it to one particular school. If it would throw the balance of the local schools out hugely it is problematic. Small village schools may not be the most economical model but offer a lot in terms of pastoral care, especially for kids who might find a large shiny huge primary school overwhelming.
I think the principle of encouraging private investment like this into state schools is great though, and sadly, needed.

Papyrophile · 02/11/2023 11:58

It's because the science centre that will expand an already outstanding Malmesbury school is being built on land provided by the developers who are building new housing estates to accommodate the people moving to the area as the Dyson research centre expands, hopefully improving the local economy for all.

Outstanding schools should be encouraged to expand. Nothing to prevent the other primaries also being outstanding. So parents have a choice between small and nurturing and outstanding or bigger, better resourced and outstanding. Surely that is the dream?

Bluegreenseasoffoam · 03/11/2023 18:27

Onethingatatime23 · 30/10/2023 10:07

State schools should be so good that there is no need for private education.

Good education is one of the most important and basic things for the state to provide, it's not akin to choosing a big car or choosing to fly first class.

Edited

No. State schools should not exist. Monopoles are always bad for consumers.

bogoffeternal · 05/12/2023 01:12

@Didimum not to be pedantic, but education is not a right as rights can never be dependent on the labour of others.

Londiniumrocks · 09/12/2023 16:50

‘Parents want kids to go to schools with other kids from good families. It isn’t hugely about the quality of the education at the school. That’s why church schools are so popular.’

of course, choosing a church school means you’re a better person. The parents are better. The families are better. The kids are better. Despite all the abusers and paedophiles who have hidden behind the protection of churches, church schools all these years, allowed to abuse in the name of god/s.

Londiniumrocks · 09/12/2023 16:51

Superior in every way…