Private school vs private anything educational

[stopitstopitnooow]

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with:

Buying houses in expensive catchment areas
Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching
Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE

(Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians)

I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

I think it's good for children (and just everyone in general to be honest) to mix with people from a wide range of backgrounds, it's nothing to do with them not being fair for me. I couldn't care less about any of your examples apart from the paying for a good catchment area.

Also many parents will do private school plus pay for everything in your examples, it's not one or the other.

Because SEN will make up a tiny percentage of private school pupils, many private schools are also worse for SEN provision.

Children of equal ability have an unfair advantage when they attend private schools.

Everybody knows it. Own it.

@Alo3Vera

Not getting the secondary education being in crisis claim

Really?! Have you not seen the figures on teachers leaving the profession? The threads on behaviour in schools? Or on the way kids can’t even safely go to the toilet at school? There’s another thread about appalling classroom behaviour. There was one a while back about the fact that kids have to stand in the rain to eat their lunch. Schools are very often total disaster zones.

If you have a chance not to subject your children to that (and you don’t live in a highly affluent area where there are fantastic state schools), many people take that chance even if it slowly bankrupts them!

Last I heard MN threads didn’t define school quality. State schools may be massively underfunded but are not “very often total disaster zones”.How offensive to the scores of hardworking staff who are providing good and outstanding education in 90% of the country’s schools.

Please don’t try to justify the unfair privileges that private education buys by denigrating the education everyone else gets.

https://www.schoolbus.co.uk/news/featured-article/number-of-teachers-leaving-the-profession-hits-record-high/9649

This is one of many sources that will, effectively, inform you that teaching in the UK is up shit creek.

Not denigrating the work of teachers FFS. They do an amazing job in a fucking awful situation. Inadequate funding, dickheads from OFSTED driving them to suicide, unbelievably poor behaviour from pupils, lack of parental support for sanctions.

But sure, keep telling yourself state education is just fine and dandy 🙄

Education is a basic necessity, like housing, food, water, warmth. Some people have ‘’better’’ bigger houses in nicer areas with better fixtures and fittings etc, and that’s fine, as long as every house is safe, warm and functional.

However, I believe everyone is entitled to at least a high quality of education as standard, as well educated children are our future and the vast majority don’t have access to a good education, so this makes the privileged at an advantage for good jobs (a relatively small minority).

Without a decent education it affects someone’s whole future, and they are more likely to stay impoverished throughout life.

Whether or not someone can afford private tuition outside school is irrelevant really, but the universal standard needs increasing so you can’t buy yourself into jobs.

I realise this was a few days ago but I couldn't see that anyone had responded to this. This is a misunderstanding of the situation.
(1) Labour are no longer seeking to remove charitable status from private schools and no-one who knew anything about the law thought it was ever likely that they would. (2) Private schools currently pay VAT. Whereas state schools can reclaim VAT they pay suppliers, private schools cannot. So the current situation on VAT is advantageous to state schools NOT to private schools (3) The plan is to make parents pay VAT, not the school (though Keir Starmer has fudged this when talking about it) - by putting VAT on educational services the policy would require VAT to be added to parents' bills (4) If this happens then the schools will then be able to offset the VAT that they pay (see point 2).

and that’s fine, as long as every house is safe, warm and functional.

I assume you’re joking?

Why? A lot of people are living in shit houses full of mould, not well insulated etc. They should be improved, but not everyone needs a 4 bed detached, as long as it’s safe and comfortable etc. if someone can afford a bigger house that’s ok.

The point I was trying to make is houses are the same as cars, no one needs a posh car, they need something functional they can get about in. Same as houses, no one needs a big posh house, they need something that meets basic requirements and that’s safe.

Education isn’t the same and should be more equal for the reasons I said.

Do the private sector educate teachers? No.It is funded, at least in the first instance by the government

Do the private sector educate teachers? No.Itis funded, at least in the first instance by the government

most private schoool offer placements to PGCE students. Why do you think they wouldn't?

Without a decent education it affects someone’s whole future, and they are more likely to stay impoverished throughout life

I'll ask again. How do you think tipping the 7% of kids in education out of the private sector into the state sector is going to improve the life of the most disadvantaged?

Don't be so dramatic @Baconisdelicious - you phrase it as if ALL 7% will bail out.

Yes, I understand that it's a personal decision for many people who will prioritise their individual child's benefit, rather than wider society's. If there is unfairness baked into society, it's not surprising that people will go along with it.

But that's why it's incumbent on governments to try and put policies into place that will try and make things fairer for the majority. And, yes, that absolutely goes for healthcare as well.

Not getting the secondary education being in crisis claim. Only 10% of schools are rated as unsatisfactory and they then have Ofsted crawling all over them. Parents primarily choose private education due to snobbery and the unfair advantage it buys

Hmm....I work in an independent in an area that is broadly very deprived. Our school is thriving, more so post-covid and the current economic crisis. There are some excellent schools locally, some not so good, but what is clear from friends in the state sector is that it is deteriorating....and fast, even in the good schools. I don't think our parents, for the most part, are choosing private out of snobbery. Rather, there is a significant number who are boarderline when it comes to affording it, are looking at both state and private, and are scraping together the fees for the independent where as 5 years ago, they;d have risked the state schools.

As for 'unfair advantage', the majority of our children do stuff - art, music, drama, sports - outside of school which is paid for. They do stuff inside school - art, music, drama, sports - which is also paid extra for. All they're buying is small class sizes and a cohort of kids who think it's cool to acheive. The rest they'd be paying for regardless.

I went to a day school.

You think that it’s fair that you can afford private school and others can’t - it’s their hard luck, your advantage and they should just suck it up.

I can afford to privately educate my children even after their charitable status ends and I have to pay massively increased fees. If you can’t, then I think that’s hard luck and you should just suck it up, or get a better job. I’m richer than you, and the disadvantage to your children seems absolutely fine to me.

Still sit well with you?

Don't be so dramatic @Baconisdelicious- you phrase it as if ALL 7% will bail out

the underlying theme of this thread is that if we charge vat on schools fees, somehow education will be improved in state schools. So my (repeated) question is how? Whether it's all 7% or a small minority of those who are currently independently educated, how will their shifting to the state system improve the state system and/or somehow even up the playing field in the private schools?

This is a really good point! I was actually thinking this, people are fine with inequality until it affects them!

Actually, I don't think anyone is arguing this ^^.

The argument is that the state should not be subsidising privilege through the offering of tax breaks to private schools. And that the (admittedly less than sector-changing) extra revenue raised through putting VAT on private schools will be better spent on state schools.

The broader argument is that the UK elite (politicians, newspaper columnists, academia, and government - especially Conservative government) - doesn't prioritise state education because it is unfairly drawn from private education.

@Baconisdelicious
Initially, it will be bloody awful, a whole load of extra kids that the state schools have to accommodate (hopefully there will be some planning and forethought but let's assume the worst).

Over time the benefits will be diversity of thought and knowledge of how different sections of society work and hopefully all will benefit because we're all more conscious of each other.
Those parents with pointy elbows will focus on how to improve the school.
The schools will hopefully have a robust plan of how to deal with troublesome students as society will not tolerate it.
Teachers will be thought of as a prestige and premium career option
Funding will be enough for every school.

I realise I am writing about a utopia but with private schools (and grammars) it's just impossible to achieve.

I grew up in one of the poorest boroughs in England. I learnt pretty quickly that I would need to leave my area to get away from the toxic inter-generational poverty that still exists.

My DH and I could have just about afford private school but we decided to buy in a naice area with good schools. Lots of people in our area have thought the same.

My friend who is a secondary school teacher says if you want to know how easy /difficult a year group is you just need to look at the parents.

Baconisdelicious

Well they’re buying something else too going by the unfair over representation of the privately educated in the top unis and jobs.

@stopitstopitnooow
some people seem to hold the idea that

if all went to state schools, then somehow the wealthy would suddenly make the state schools better.

some think it levels the field and that everyone has the same equal chances

the main problem is , how people learn and the ones that want to learn,
if you gave everyone the same standard school, same books, same quality teachers eg androids etc (this is for the purpose of my example) so every thing as much as possible is the same.

the teaching begins, after a while youll have some that learn quickly
youll have some that like some subjects more than others
youll have some that want to learn but struggle and need help
then youll have some that want to mess around and not learn anything

then youll have a much larger business created of parents using private tutors, librarys, buying extra books ect

overall even if my some chance the whole education race was started equal, once teaching begins, humans all learn differently

Thats not whst i meant, i am pretty sure they lap up any free help they can get!
Fo yhey run the courses, do they fund the students?