Private school vs private anything educational

[stopitstopitnooow]

If you have an issue with private schools, why? Do you have an issue with:

Buying houses in expensive catchment areas
Extracurricular activities such as music lessons, swimming, sports coaching
Tutors; language, 11+, GCSE

(Also, private healthcare, dentists, opticians)

I honestly don't understand the angst when it comes to private schools. Let people spend their money however they see fit.

Factually, you are not subsiding private schools. At all. They do not receive taxpayer money. On the other hand private schools parents are paying taxes to fund state schools.

The tax is designed as a “sin” tax.

Private schools, because they are charities, can claim Gift Aid from the taxpayer. When three-quarters of a billionaire couple Rishi Sunak and his wife, Akshata Murthy, donated £100,000 to his old school, Winchester College, the school could claim an extra £25,000 from HMRC.

My kids go to a selective private school. I went to a grammar school. I have no bones with the principle but their school has seen a sharp drop in offers from Oxbridge. I'd probably be in a better position as a female student from a grammar school for Oxbridge applications and certainly for graduate jobs.

Our local state schools are outstanding. I'd happily send my kids there but the one that's not technically a grammar but called a grammar is only non-selective for the kids in the inner catchment. Which has now shrunk to a few hundred metres away from school and house prices are extortionate plus stamp duty is six figures.

I don't think the halo effect of the influx of private parents will materialise in reality. I have many friends with kids in state schools and their sway is minimal to non-existent, even aa governors (and the same is true for private schools). It's far easier to supplement teaching with individual or small group tutoring, rather than try to instigate a rapid and fundamental transformation of school standards. And as PPs have said, parental attitudes to education and social-economic background are just as influential as the school itself.

I'd probably be in a better position as a female student from a grammar school for Oxbridge applications and certainly for graduate jobs.

On what basis are you making that claim?

And what about graduate jobs. ("Graduate jobs" is quite a vague term, anyway.). Do you mean employers will choose an "identical" applicant who went to a state grammar and Oxbridge over one who went to a private school and Oxbridge? What evidence do you have for that?

How does being a female student make a difference? Do you think Oxbridge discriminates aginst men in its recruitment?

And what about graduate jobs. ("Graduate jobs" is quite a vague term, anyway.). Do you mean employers will choose an "identical" applicant who went to a state grammar and Oxbridge over one who went to a private school and Oxbridge? What evidence do you have for that?

I thought it was well known that Oxbridge is trying to actively reduce its private school intake and increase its state school intake? I thought contextual type offers were part of this but if I'm mistaken, then I apologise.

There are work experience/subject specific programs that are not available to private school students. I forget the physics summer course (possibly Imperial) my son was looking at but it was for state school pupils only.

My other son was looking at work experience programs for school-aged pupils and they were only for female and/or black students (in fairness I don't know whether state school pupils were given priority or not), One of the companies said there was nothing to stop him applying but he didn't as it felt inappropriate.

Just for the record, I have no issue with any of the above. I'm aware my kids have certain privileges from their school and this is an opportunity to level things. But being white, male and private school educated isn't always the asset perhaps people assume it is.

The only way my DS with SEN gets an equal education is by him going to a private school with a learning support unit that caters to his needs. He will now come out with distinctly average GCSEs which he would not achieved in the state sector. I fail to see how that is unfair to anyone TBH.

Until the state sector can provide a good standard of education across the country then I think the arguements people have against private schools are complete nonsense. It isn't a fair system within state schools. it really depends on the area and the quality of the schools. My DS would have ended up in a school that has much lower than average results who wouldn't have been able to get the support he needed and most likely would have been bullied as it is rife there.

The only people who argue against them live in areas with good/outstanding schools or live in grammar school areas (how are they any different to private schools in principle).

I would much prefer to have sent by DS to the local state school, we are skint as due to cost of living the fees have risen 10% this last 2 years compared to the usual 2 % and now looks like DH will lose his job by xmas so we'll struggle to get DS through the rest of Y11 but for his future it will be worth it as he'll hopefully get 5 x 4s and get onto the course he wants.

I thought it was well known that Oxbridge is trying to actively reduce its private school intake and increase its state school intake?

Yes, and this and the schemes you mention are trying to address the unfair imbalance of students from private schools who have historically been hugely over-represented at Oxbridge.

The fact that your kids' school has seen a drop in Oxbridge offers doesn't necessarily mean that state school students are now more likely than your kids to be accepted. It just means that state school students should at least be less unfairly treated than they have been previously.

Private day schools receive £15,654 per pupil on average: https://www.killik.com/the-edit/true-cost-private-school-education-2023/

State secondary schools receive £6,050 per pupil: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/record-funding-for-schools-in-england#:~:text=For%202024%2D25%2C%20every%20mainstream,pay%20announced%20in%20July%202023.

It's not unfair (and will only make a token impact) that a university's summer physics course seeks to help those who have had such a disproportionate lack of resources spent on them during their time in school.

I have no issue with any of the above. I'm aware my kids have certain privileges from their school and this is an opportunity to level things.

These kind of initiatives won't level things. Private school pupils are still highly advantaged by their parents' abiity to access this kind of education. Parents wouldn't pay for private schooling if they didn't think they were.

MasterBeth I'm not sure what we're disagreeing over? When it comes to uni applications, coming from a private school is a disadvantage in some ways, as you mention. It confers other advantages over some state schools (although our local state schools are academically equal in terms of results).

As I've said, I understand the rationale and I don't have an issue with it. When I was applying for an investment banking job ages ago, employers were tripping over themselves to offer jobs to a state-educated woman. I was a beneficiary of that desire to diversify a traditional male and private school dominated sector.

Anything that gets it out of the hands of Government.

The Jesuit “give me the boy until he is seven and I will show you the man” has been used to give us two generations of lovers of Government.

Anything that allows competition and innovation to bring the industry out of the dark ages.

I am disagreeing with you when you say that, for university applications, coming from private school is any kind of disadvantage. It's not.

It may be less of an advantage than it used to be. Good.

I am not against VAT on school fees per se. But I have also completely understand if private schools stop offering/start reducing burseries if they lose their charitable status. Private schools will officially owe nobody anything without charitable status.

in answer to your original question OP, it’s envy.

@stopitstopitnooow
Do you really not understand or are you just being wide eyed and disingenuous? "Envious" and "Porsche" suggest the latter.

Someone else dropped in a study saying kids are 30% more likely to get into Oxbridge if they leave private school for state sector in the sixth form.

And on jobs, my kid is looking for work experience. For most of the relevant businesses he wants, you have to be a) a girl; or b) free school meals or non-uni parents.

A Mc job will be better than nothing but not as helpful as the ones he is barred from due to being a class enemy.

Yes. I'm a secondary school teacher in a challenging area. Parents who buy opportunities often complain top universities level the playing field with scholarships, access arrangements. I understand why people do it but don't be surprised when non- fee paying people get the same or better.

The Daily Telegraph survey is hardly gold standard research. It compares acceptance rates of Cambridge applicants from private schools and from state schools who switched from private for A levels. It absolutely does not prove that any individual studnet who moves from the private to state sector increases their chances by 30%.

The second example you cite doesn't seem to have anything to do with private schools and is about redressing gender or social imbalance. Are you against that?

Agree a control group isn’t possible for that study. But the fact that motivated people think it helps and their kids are 30% more likely to get in shows that there is something in it.

Yes. Of course I’m against people being barred from jobs due to sex or parental status.

Even if you don’t agree it’s morally wrong, you can see that countries who impose class enemy status that passes down through the generations are generally countries that people run from.

Crazy comments in this thread. I remember some people in our village got snooty with my mum in the 90s because we got into Oxbridge from the local comp and they'd paid 10s of £1000s to avoid it and assumed an Oxbridge place would be bought. Private schools pupils are still many times more likely to get in - they are 7% of school population and around 30% of Oxbridge intake. You're less able to buy privilege than you were but the progress is actually miniscule. Tops jobs still 5 x more occupied with private school pupils..come on!

Our local private school is totally open that they take top performing children from states on a bursary for 6th form because they enhance their results. Someone we know on free school means with a dad in prison got 10 x 9 and they couldn't wait to get her in. It's self interest.

Which is fine.

As Oxbridge stop selecting on ability, they stop being so desirable internationally. Almost imperceptible right now - but watching this space…

They are selecting on ability. Private school pupils statistically get higher grades because they had more help smaller classes etc. It's not ability. State schools pupils with same grades do better at uni. It's diminishing the extent to which you can buy privilege (albeit not very much..)

@MasterBeth I’m not disagreeing with your ideology exactly. But can you see that for many parents, choosing a school is very much a pragmatic exercise?

Secondary education especially is in absolute crisis. Do you really judge the parent who scrapes together the money to avoid a dire school?

To be totally transparent, yes I send my kids to private school. I don’t do it to ‘buy advantage’ and all those oxbridge statistics are irrelevant to me at this point. I do it to dodge the dreadful experience my kids would have at our local comp. I do it for the ‘now’ not the future.

You didn’t mention (or I missed it) whether you are against people paying to opt out of dire healthcare by going private?

Every word of this.
My DD14 has ASD and ADHD and the local provision at state school is shocking.

I'm a lone parent so the school fees are a big burden but it's worth every penny to see her flourish in a small nurturing all girls school with small classes and support she needs.

She too will come out with average grades.

You’re still part of a privileged tiny minority SEN or not. I too have a child with SEN, like most we can’t afford private.

GreenAppleCrumble

Not getting the secondary education being in crisis claim. Only 10% of schools are rated as unsatisfactory and they then have Ofsted crawling all over them.

Parents primarily choose private education due to snobbery and the unfair advantage it buys.

You've been given lots of examples of parents who haven't opted for private education for reasons of snobbery. Why is it that you don't believe them? My DD is also at a private school because of her SEN being utterly unsupported at her state primary. It has precisely the sum total of fuck all to do with snobbery.