To want to understand and get something to be done about the school toilet issue.

[Rasell]

Until a couple of days ago I was blissfully unaware of the fact that lots of children are unable to go to the toilet all day at school on a daily basis, because lots of schools countrywide lock their toilets during lesson time and then are either too understaffed to open them or there are just too many children trying to use them, there's not enough time to eat and queue up for the toilet so these children are forced to hold it in all day, every day.
This seems to be because of appalling antisocial behaviour, destroying the facilities, bullying and worse but I'm not clear as to whether that's always the reason why.
I very much sympathise with schools having to deal with this and am horrified by the utter lack of values, respect, care, integrity and common decency that some people are raising their children to have. I don't know how to solve that problem but it definitely can't be blamed on schools or government, in my opinion; if you have children, raise them to be decent human beings. That's your job.
Denying children the right to use the toilet is unacceptable, though.
No-one can expect older children to just swan off at any given moment for a wee when they're busy doing a task in a lesson; if I need the loo while I'm busy at work I wait until I finish it then I go. However, if I've got my period and am leaking, or suddenly get a tummy ache or something, then I go immediately. Why should that be different at school? Why should they sit there in a pool of blood or desperately trying to hold their poo? How can they focus or work to their best ability?
This feels like pensioners having to choose between heating their homes or eating, or children coming to school without having breakfast and not being able to concentrate. We can't allow our children to have to choose whether they eat or go to the toilet, or sit in a classroom unable to follow the teacher because they're worried they're going to wet themselves. Boys weeing in bushes and girls holding it in all day...this is madness!!
The thread I was following was a mix of people's experiences from either side of the argument and rants. I really want to understand what's going on because I think we need to do something about it. I'm no-one and don't even have any children going through this but I'm so shocked by it that I want to get some facts and start a petition, I don't know, do something! Please help with useful information and comments. Thank you!

I think it's not a simplistic comment at all and you are missing the devastating impact that lack of funds has had on schools.

The lack of funding has been going on for 13 years and there has been a drip-drip effect of teachers leaving, TAs being made redundant, subject offers that might be more appropriate for less able students being withdrawn, pastoral support being limited, SEN needs not being met.

Then we had the pandemic. That has hypercharged all these issues. Mental health issues in children have gone through the roof and CAMHS which is the agency which should be supporting children with this has collapsed. SEN needs have also shot up without any increase in support (more likely decrease) to meet them.

Post-covid it was recommended that the govt invested £15 billion in a package of recovery for children. They said no. And here we are, dealing with the fallout.

It has been reasonably well publicised that there is an attendance crisis in schools. Part of this is mental health related, part increase in sickness absence related, part is poverty related, among other issues.

What isn't as well publicised is that there is also an internal truancy crisis. Kids who are attending school but not attending lessons. These kids may well end up in the toilets where teachers can't get to them.

Only half the required number of secondary teachers were trained last year, only half the required number are being trained this year The situation in schools where they are being held up by a very few experienced staff, some inexperienced staff and a whole bunch of supply teachers (who may or may not even be teachers), with kids who are increasingly disaffected, unsupported and impacted by a variety of societal issues is a recipe for disaster.

People understand that there's a crisis in the NHS when you phone for an ambulance and one doesn't arrive. They understand that you can't expect a police officer to investigate a crime. We're now in the situation where you can't expect a convicted rapist to be sent to prison because there's no room.

Why anyone would expect schools to be able to function normally is beyond me.

On the flip side, my eldest never used the toilets in school because they were "so disgusting"... until they started locking them (except the ones by reception which were monitored) during lesson times. Then she started using them because they were so much better.

Why should that be different at school?

Ideally it shouldn't. But kids routinely lie. Tbh why wouldn't they? If they don't like the teacher/the subject/the child they're sitting next to/ are feeling bored or a bit tired or fancy a break, or a vape, and they know that the teacher will let them go if they are convincing enough, what's to stop them? All the kids know that. So do teachers. How can you tell who genuinely needs to go? You can't.

@TheLongGloriesOfTheWinterMoon I don't understand? What you mean or why you're being nasty. As I said in the original post, there are lots of people on various threads saying their children aren't able to use the toilet all day. I've asked people who are able to make valid comments if they can explain and educate people like me who know nothing about it...maybe something can be done. To first suggest that these posts are started by perverts or liars and then say I've drunk cool aid is offensive, unhelpful and unnecessary. Just don't get involved with thread if it annoys you.

But it's the children making the other children suffer by trashing the toilets can you not see that

Schools can't fund the ECHPs that are a legal requirement, they are not going to be able to continually find funding to repair vandalised toilets.

My mum talks about the same thing happening when she was at school in the 50s and 60s. Twas ever thus...

@Purplebunnie then the adults in the room need to sort out the problem children.

It is not the answer to require children to suffer. If my workplace develops a ‘phantom &@:” smearer’ my workplace sorts it out it does not deny my basic right to use a toilet when I need to. If someone goes on a rampage and destroys the toilets, my workplace would arrange to use a neighbouring buildings loos, or get portaloos. It would not deny me basic right to relieve myself.

Our children are not lesser beings. We don’t get to just shrug and say ‘oh well, now none of you can pee when you need to’.

@FrippEnos they somehow manage when the lawyers get involved and force the issue. I see it time and time again.

Children should not be told to suffer because of a small minority. It is for adults to sort out without actively harming children.

Somehow manage means money is taken from elsewhere in the system and kids miss out somewhere else.

So kids are suffering either way.

Unless there's sufficient funding to sort out the staffing crisis and for schools to be able to build and repair as needed, this will continue.

Kids vape, wreck the loos, we even had some yr11 lads dealing drugs in there. It's impossible to monitor and deal with.

Parents are up in arms about their kids not being able to go to the loo (rightly) but the parents of the kids who misbehave either don't care or think the school has it in for their kid or just are the type who believe their little darling despite the fact they were caught red handed, vaping by a teacher.

Parents need to wake up and demand far, far better from their government for their kids. @noblegiraffe and many of us have been on and on about the consequences of underfunding for years on here and it's only recently that the penny seems to have started dropping that OUR children are being utterly failed.

And the teachers and schools are doing what they can with what little time, money and resources they have. They, and our kids deserve better.

I'm involved because it's lies.
Yes there are rules.
No children are not having their human rights denied.
They ARE having their education disrupted by 26 kids all wanting to get out of class together by having their 5th period of the month.

Since September I've told about 4 habitual offenders that no, they can't go to the loo. They rolled their eyes and said OK you've sussed us.

They won't be seeing the lawyers anytime soon.

'DH is a senior leader. There’s no staff. He’s working 14 hour days without going to the toilet'
This is not the point -no one is stopping your husband from using the toilet.

Well said.

The high schools near me have removed the doors and the toilet seats to stop people hiding in the cubicles. I think this is much worse than locking the toilets

And then on other threads people are advised that sending DC to independent schools is pointless, state is just as good etc…

Back to the topic, there are free measures that could be put in place

• school council could organise a supervision rota
• use the collection for the next dress-up day to buy a few cheap webcams (£20)
• severe consequences for offenders, including having to clean the loos, exclusion etc.

I genuinely don’t understand why these measures are not put in place but instead someone thought it would be acceptable to lock the loos. Imagine the staff’s reaction if their loos were locked!

Yes, kids will miss out. But they won’t be being actively made into I’ll and anxious school refusers with major bladder issues. They won’t be having their basic right to use a toilet denied by a public authority that had a duty to provide them with access to a loo.

No the history field trip may not happen. The class sizes may have to increase. The art classes may not get to use clay anymore. No school production this year.
But the basic, recognised human right to use the loo will be fulfilled.

And if parents aren’t happy, schools can explain the reasons. They can explain the vandalism, the poor behaviour. They can explain that due to the badly behaved, the rest can’t have the nice things - but their basic human right that prevents them being utterly disrespected and degraded will be met.

@TheLongGloriesOfTheWinterMoon well that's much more helpful! Thank you.
I, like so many others, know some schools are rough and that all schools are struggling to a point but not the extent. This is all very far removed from my own experience with my children and my job...it sounds utterly hopeless. Where do we go from here?

Honestly, until you've had to deal with it I don't think you have a clue.

Schools are short staffed and so those that are there are stretched thinly. We have a duty to investigate if we think there's any shenanigans in the loos. So you go in, find vaping/damage/smoking/skivers.

Then you have to deal with them, which takes ages as it creates admin, getting them out of the loo/to pastoral/class/getting on call SLT to take them away.

Now you're late for your lesson/duty/meeting and behind.

There's also kids who try it on. They arrange to meet their mates in the loos during lessons. Definitely had girls who seem to have almost permanent periods.....and a vape problem.

Bear in mind I've had to deal with yr11 boys with criminal records dealing/smoking weed in the loos, as well as the usual bullying etc. One of those is now in prison for drug dealing and ABH with a knife. This is not just little kids shoving loo roll down the pan and blocking them up (though this also happens)

It's not as easy as opening them up, much as every goddamn teacher would tell you that's EXACTLY what they would like. For the loos to be open, pleasant and respected and used as such.

Sadly, reality is different.

Really!

• school council could organise a supervision rota Staff or pupils? Staff, who's paying for that? Pupils-is the sort of pupil who is vandalising toilets going to just say "certainly I'll stop" to a fellow pupil. Hmm.
• use the collection for the next dress-up day to buy a few cheap webcams (£20) Because there's never going to be any objections to webcams in the toilets, are there? Oh and who's going to watch them. Anyway, the first thing they'll go for is to put the webcams out of action. Ideally with something pulled over the face, but they'll learn that for the second time anyway.
• severe consequences for offenders, including having to clean the loos, exclusion etc. Oh boy! If you get the sad faces in the newspaper of the child who knew full well that the rules said they couldn't wear jewellery and got it confiscated, imagine the faces if they had to clean the toilets. And exclusion... I can tell you the headline now "Pupil excluded for needing the toilet.".

And as for the staff toilets being locked... how many staff leave their lessons to go to the toilet in an average day?

You’ve obviously never worked in an urology or gynaecology department have you? You’d obviously prefer to see pupils p|sis or sh|t themselves..or sit in a pool of blood for hours than let 5hem use a toilet?

My kids won't use the toilets even if open. They are disgusting as other kids make a mess, kids are attacked, doors forced open, photos taken.

No, they're really not. This is actually happening, it's not some weird sick fantasy 🙄

Class sizes already increased to try and plug financial holes
History trips are funded by those parents contributions, not school nowadays. No funds for trips apart from for FSM/LAC kids.

Funding needs sorting
Parents need holding accountable for the children's behaviour. Your kid damages the toilets? You pay. Arguing of who did it between kids. Split the costs.
Those that do vape etc need to have real consequences. 1 day at home is a fun holiday, not a punishment.

Loads of excuses for kids these days, too many rights and not enough responsibility. The good kids who just want to go to school, use the toilet appropriately etc are the silent majority suffering for the 5% and their ineffective or indulgent parenting.

My school 30 years ago locked the toilets during lessons, once I felt sick and ran through the school to four different toilets to find them all locked and ended up vomiting on the floor 🤷🏻‍♀️