To want to understand and get something to be done about the school toilet issue.

[Rasell]

Until a couple of days ago I was blissfully unaware of the fact that lots of children are unable to go to the toilet all day at school on a daily basis, because lots of schools countrywide lock their toilets during lesson time and then are either too understaffed to open them or there are just too many children trying to use them, there's not enough time to eat and queue up for the toilet so these children are forced to hold it in all day, every day.
This seems to be because of appalling antisocial behaviour, destroying the facilities, bullying and worse but I'm not clear as to whether that's always the reason why.
I very much sympathise with schools having to deal with this and am horrified by the utter lack of values, respect, care, integrity and common decency that some people are raising their children to have. I don't know how to solve that problem but it definitely can't be blamed on schools or government, in my opinion; if you have children, raise them to be decent human beings. That's your job.
Denying children the right to use the toilet is unacceptable, though.
No-one can expect older children to just swan off at any given moment for a wee when they're busy doing a task in a lesson; if I need the loo while I'm busy at work I wait until I finish it then I go. However, if I've got my period and am leaking, or suddenly get a tummy ache or something, then I go immediately. Why should that be different at school? Why should they sit there in a pool of blood or desperately trying to hold their poo? How can they focus or work to their best ability?
This feels like pensioners having to choose between heating their homes or eating, or children coming to school without having breakfast and not being able to concentrate. We can't allow our children to have to choose whether they eat or go to the toilet, or sit in a classroom unable to follow the teacher because they're worried they're going to wet themselves. Boys weeing in bushes and girls holding it in all day...this is madness!!
The thread I was following was a mix of people's experiences from either side of the argument and rants. I really want to understand what's going on because I think we need to do something about it. I'm no-one and don't even have any children going through this but I'm so shocked by it that I want to get some facts and start a petition, I don't know, do something! Please help with useful information and comments. Thank you!

So many big shiny new build schools too! Why didn't anyone think about the open plan near the main offices up thread or attached to classrooms? It would've solved a myriad of issues schools are facing. Unless the government are willing to pay each school to have a toilet security guard 🧐

so Pupils leaving classes to go to the toilet would end up in a queue waiting their turn

I was in the other thread. I agree something must be done.
And not just about toilets, but schools and education in this country in general.

@noblegiraffe actually replied to me in the bit she quoted here, when I said I could not get my head round the rationale for closing the toilets (and doing away with breaks).
Unfortunately, I do know how awful the situation in schools is, having a Year 10 DD in secondary school - of course, not as in depth as teachers or other school staff, but I am very aware of how shit things have become.

However, I still find it unbelievable that closing the toilets is even contemplated as a 'solution'. These are toilets and basic physiological needs.

That aside, can I ask all teachers and school staff here , what you think the main issue is? Asking specifically about toilets & breaks, to keep things 'simple'.
So far we have:

• Lack of staff
• Bad behaviour (on a fundamental level, i.e. subpar ubpringing)
• Vandalism (actual criminal behaviour)
• Funding (undepinning it all)
• Academisation (how much worse is it?)

What else?

Like many here, I'm trying to understand what can be done.

For instance, I know that my DD's previuosly well regarded school has gone down the pan - pun unintended - since it became part of a MAT. But then, that was a couple of years before the pandemic so not sure which is more to blame.

We keep getting ridiculous, pointless letters about uniform and lateness (despite having permision in DD's case, hence the ridiculousness). However, not a peep about awful student behaviour. Shouldn't that be a priority for school communications? Anybody would think that DD's school is populated by angels. It is not.

Something else, whatever happened to the concept of expelling pupils? I for one am all for it. One temporary exclusion, then a longer one, then you're out. Why is this not done?

Isn’t a queue better than zero access.

I don't really know what the solution is. But denying kids a basic human right is shocking and not the right way to deal with bullying / anti-social behaviour. (Toilets should always be accessible at break and lunchtimes - during lessons is a different matter, and should be based on medical need).

But honestly, there are times it feels like schools / SLTs are trying to tackle bad behaviour and actually making it much worse. They're expecting kids to toe the line over the silliest of rules and punishing kids harshly for breaking one of them (eg going to isolation for wearing the wrong colour socks or for forgetting a pen). Some schools sound more like prisons than a place where kids are believed in, respected and encouraged to achieve their potential. These are not places that are conducive to learning or to good behaviour.

If they are essentially treated like a herd of wild animals (or maybe worse, as animals can piss when they like), how can school leaders expect the kids to treat the school or other people with dignity and respect?

Of course, some parents are a huge part of the problem, in their lack of parenting / creating a sense of entitlement in their kids etc.. I get that.. but I do think deterioration of behaviour in schools is surely not just down to terrible parenting.

Respect breeds respect surely? Or maybe it doesn't with some kids.

Echoing what PPs have said - the toilets are the tip of the iceberg. Our school has a compromise method in place at the moment in which we have the accessible toilet on each floor opened at all times for pupils to use during lessons and all others locked except during break/lunch. Guess what happens? We have had SO many issues with kids peeing all over everything, pulling the sinks from the walls, smashing the actual toilet bowl, throwing loo roll everywhere...it looks like we are going to have to do what other schools are doing and lock all toilets aside from break and lunch. We have NO capacity to patrol the toilets and our budget has taken a pummelling from the vandalism. Parents will be raging but I'm not sure what other choice we have.

It's completely inhumane.

This is an issue a good journalist or two should get behind.

i can see why young people are angry, and as usual it disproportionately affects girls/women.
are schools legally able to block/restrict toilet access?
Do private and grammar schools do similar?
I’m only asking to see what avenue for change is possible? Newspaper/letter writing/political pressure etc.

@greenspaces4peace DDs private school doesn't lock toilets/limit access but there again it doesn't have any of the behaviour issues mentioned on here and has enough staff to check toilets.

If you get lawyers involved the toilets will open. Funny that. I’m really unclear why people on this thread are so accepting of the denial of a basic human right for a child. If you require kids to attend school and remain on premises, you need to provide sanitation.

And yes, children damage stuff. Some are vile. That’s for the adults to actually sort out, rather than deciding to actively cause girls to have UTIs and children to develop health issues.

Perhaps Freudians would see it as something to do with powerlessness and control.

Blame the government for cutting funds.

I don't think enough notice is being taken of what is happening to our SEND kids. My autistic, violent and challenging behaviour child has an EHCP (that I had to fight for) but the LA are arguing he needs to be in mainstream school.... this is very very common the gov has been pushing to have send kids in mainstream for too long now because of 'inclusion' *money. His behaviour disrupts a whole class and is quite frankly scary and upsetting for the children and staff. Because he is high need Sen and needs a specialist school except there are not enough school placements for Sen kids and no where near enough money so these challenging kids are pushed I to mainstream. I had to fight to get him 1:1 but they are paid minimum wage to get scratched and kicked as my child tried to escape school grounds constantly and hide. When distressed my child will soil himself and in trying to clean himself up it gets smeared all over the fucking place. And the LA insist he should be in mainstream? Again i say this is not uncommon for kids like mine to be in mainstream. So I had no choice but to keep my child home quit work and live off benefits. Currently have an alternative provision just 6 hours a week who are struggling to manage him with 2:1!! No matter what these Sen kids are not given enough support/the right place and so schools have to support them out of budget. If I refused to quit work I would have no choice but to force him into the school.

Then I have a daughter who is Sen but not violent or challenging and she get absolutely no support because there are 3 kids in her class who are very challenging and so the teacher (who is constantly off sick) spends all her time trying to manage behaviour. Let alone teach.

Yes some kids are just badly behaved but many are Sen. Sort the Sen provision so there is availability for the kids who need then that frees up teachers to teach and not be attacked by send/autistic children having a meltdown because they can't cope with the busy loud over crowded school environment.

But you know the government is actually trying to reduce EHCP provisions currently? This will only make the problem worse.

That's before I even start on the horrible attitudes of non send kids today. When I was at school 20 years ago they were covered in graffiti, urine on the floors and period products littered around. Broken mirrors. Kids in there smoking doing make up. There was even a rape. The school was rated outstanding according to ofsted back then. I dread to think what it's like now

Of course there should be access to toilets, of course it’s unfair to expect children and young people to spend all day without access to a toilet. But it is very dispiriting when you see newly refurbished and cleaned toilets reduced to a filthy and unhygienic state on a regular basis.

A paragraph with which the majority of teachers in Secondary schools will agree.

No.

Please bear in mind that:
Many of these school toilet threads are started by perverts who love to talk about girls on their periods, children wetting and soiling themselves etc

The genuine threads about it are usually from parents who have misunderstood and/or whose angels are the disruptive kids who we know are asking to leave the lesson to waste time.

Every school I've taught in has rules about the toilet. Based on trusting our common sense.

Since 1994 not one of my students has ever bled, pissed or shat themselves.

Blame the government for cutting funds.

Simplistic comment! You are forgetting Brexit etc for a full card. This foul behaviour has been going on for years and it has increased exponentially as the power to discipline has been watered down on the altar of 'rights'. Everyone likes to bleat on about 'rights', responsibilities are less popular and many pupils, usually the slobs who vandalise toilets etc with parental support, think they're now in charge of the zoo.

If you get lawyers involved the toilets will open. Funny that.

Ok, you're a headteacher, you've had to pay out tens of thousands of pounds fixing vandalised toilets. You've just heard that the DfE have fucked up funding for next year and you are now £50k short of what you thought you would get and will have to make cuts.

You cannot afford to have to fix the toilets again. You cannot afford for them to be vandalised again.

The lawyer is called, the toilets are forced open, they are vandalised and you can't afford to fix them so they are now out of order and can't be used.

What now?

Lawyers will also need to be involved when secondary school students are beating others up, bullying, having sex and vandalising the property.

Bring them on.

Good luck trying to get any journalist interested in what's going on in schools unless it's the Daily Mail with a sad face pic of a kid who got caught wearing trainers.

@TheLongGloriesOfTheWinterMoon I hope you're not suggesting that I'm a pervert?

Not my problem @noblegiraffe. You don’t deny basic human rights.

Just like councils have to fund social care, schools need to keep the loos open or face the consequences. Its actually really sad that lawyers are increasingly needed to force authorities (and yes a school is an authority) to treat people properly. Children should not be suffering because the adults can’t get things sorted. If you need more money, demand it. Be loud about it. But don’t make children suffer. There’s no excuse for making children suffer.

No.
I'm saying you've drunk the cool aid of those who start a lot of these threads.

Not my problem @noblegiraffe. You don’t deny basic human rights.

Just like councils have to fund social care, schools need to keep the loos open or face the consequences.

"Not your problem". There is no money to fix the toilets. What do you want to happen? Your kid's maths teacher to be sacked to pay for it?

Yup regarding lawyers, eventually money will be found.
it does mean being relentless with contacts and keeping the pressure up on multiple fronts.

Difficult one. My daughter doesn't drink much during the day now, because the unisex 'anti-bullying' toilets are too exposed and busy during breaks, with kids she finds intimidating.

The more enclosed ones are vaped in by older kids. She used to have a pass for the toilet due to anxiety, but found that some teachers were reluctant to let her use it so she now just barely drinks much during the day.

I want people to stop excusing harming children. many perfectly nice children who only need a wee. Or would prefer not to £&@2 themselves in class because they just can’t hang on any longer. It would not be acceptable in a workplace, it’s not acceptable here.

But by all means, let’s keep a teacher while causing children to suffer recurrent UTIs, kidney infections, constipation and other bowel issues, chronic anxiety, school refusal (because they fear needing the loo). All problems that have been aired on this very site as linked (in those cases) to locking the loos.

If the problem is that bad, the answer is not to lock the loos and tell kids to hold it for the whole day. Even the worst Amazon warehouses have to have toilet facilities open, even if you have to run there and back.