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Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips

118 replies

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 10/10/2023 09:06

In The Times today, Melanie Phillips page 26 article: “a small Jewish child, alone and bewildered, being tormented on a Gaza street by Palestinian children who are all taught to hate and murder Jews”

The thought of this poor child being tormented is beyond heartbreaking to me as a mother, and as a Jew.

BUT, how can it he acceptable for a major newspaper to print that Palestinian children are all taught to hate and murder Jews?
It’s not true for one (my son’s closest friend is a little Palestinian boy who is lovely, and his family, who are from Gaza and still have relatives there, are horrified by the violence that unfolded this week. We regularly spend time together and actually have a lot in common.)

By blanket painting all Palestinians, even children, as evil terrorists, the writer is inciting hatred. Which is exactly the opposite of what is needed now to stop the bloodshed on both sides!

AIBU to think that the media are inciting hatr

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
MrTiddlesTheCat · 12/10/2023 14:10

Cincills · 12/10/2023 11:08

The Israeli army did indeed bomb the Egypt border crossing 3 times in 24 hours. This has been widely reported. You can watch the video, with hundreds of people running for their lives. As a result of the repeated bombing, aid has also been unable to enter Gaza.

https://www.aljazeera.com/amp/program/newsfeed/2023/10/11/israel-bombs-gazas-border-crossing-with-egypt

https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza/card/israeli-strike-on-gaza-s-border-crossing-with-egypt-disrupts-aid-flow-dDrRKrtPvURrsfGZuMVM

Except they didn't bomb the crossing, the crossing is still there, just not being used. They bombed the nearby tunnels being used by Hamas to smuggle weapons into Gaza.

Abhannmor · 12/10/2023 14:23

Cincills · 12/10/2023 10:20

It’s not possible for anyone to get out of Gaza right now given that the Israeli army blew up the only airport 20 years ago, has built a wall along the border, blockaded the sea to prevent anyone leaving by boat, closed the crossing into Israel and currently is repeatedly bombing the only other exit to Egypt. So everyone inside Gaza is completely trapped. With food, water and electricity cut off. And constant bombing of residential areas.

It is absolutely possible for Israel to stop bombing the Egyptian border crossing and allow children and civilians to escape. They could even assist in the evacuation if they chose to do so.

But even if Israel stops bombing and Egypt reopens the crossing , how can 2.3 million people live in some tent city in Sinai indefinitely?

Because we've seen this play out before. Israel never allows right of return. So it becomes Egypt's problem. It already became Lebanon's and Jordan's from previous expulsions.

Golda Meir , later to be become Prime Minister herself , asked PM Levi Ashkol what he was going to do with a million Palestinians in the newly conquered territory. Ashkol replied : ' I get it. You want the dowry but you don't like the bride.'
To which Meir responded : ' I yearn for the dowry with all my soul - and for someone else to take the bride.'

Cincills · 12/10/2023 21:14

MrTiddlesTheCat · 12/10/2023 14:10

Except they didn't bomb the crossing, the crossing is still there, just not being used. They bombed the nearby tunnels being used by Hamas to smuggle weapons into Gaza.

The crossing is closed because of the bombing. Egypt has called on Israel to stop bombing it so it can be reopened and lorries waiting with food and fuel can get in.

This is an intentional action by the Israeli government to prevent humanitarian aid from getting in.

”Not a single electricity switch will be flipped on, not a single faucet will be turned on, and not a single fuel truck will enter until the Israeli hostages are returned home," Israeli Energy Minister Israel Katz said on social media.

So, here we have the collective punishment of 1 million children, who have no escape route. Without electricity, newborn babies in incubators will die. Bomb-injured children will be unable to have surgery. Children will starve.

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/egypt-urges-israel-to-stop-bombing-rafah-crossing-to-allow-aid-delivery/

Egypt urges Israel to stop bombing Rafah crossing to allow aid delivery

* * *

https://www.timesofisrael.com/liveblog_entry/egypt-urges-israel-to-stop-bombing-rafah-crossing-to-allow-aid-delivery/

DownNative · 12/10/2023 23:27

Cincills · 12/10/2023 10:11

The power of the IRA in Northern Ireland was diminished by political negotiation, not by bombing and starving the whole population of Northern Ireland.

And of course you know that paramilitary groups still operate there, and still recruit and kill on occasion.

Terrorists were not extinguished by bloody war. When the IRA bombed Manchester, the army did not drop bombs on residential tower blocks across Belfast. They did not cut off the power and water to the whole of Northern Ireland, blow up the airport, blockade the Irish Sea, bomb the only exit and so prevent anyone from leaving Northern Ireland.

If they had done that - what do you think the effect would have been on the power and persuasiveness of the IRA?

I don’t know what the answer to Hamas is, but surely you cannot believe that trapping and starving 1 million children is going to be effective… not to mention just, humane or ethical?

Fundamental misunderstanding of how PIRA was defeated and pushed towards the political talks.

@Cincills said: "The power of the IRA in Northern Ireland was diminished by political negotiation."

Wrong! The power of the PIRA was diminished by the efforts of the security forces. They were inflitrated up to leadership positions which meant the SAS could obtain good intelligence in order to be ready to ambush PIRA when they attacked. Loughgall 1987 is an excellent example of that and the beginning of the end for PIRA. That's because PIRAs most efficient, committed and deadliest terrorist cell was completely wiped out by the SAS.

The UK and American Governments disrupted and then destroyed PIRAs arms smuggling from the USA. The French helped intercept some shipments from Gaddafi's Libya too. The Irish navy intercepted a shipment of weapons from the USA as well.

The Bush administration was a huge help in forcing PIRA to begin decommissioning weapons in the wake of 9/11. The "War On Terror" was about to start and PIRA would come off really badly if they restarted. Colombia caught PIRA training FARC in their country too.

But the key was intelligence which meant PIRA could no longer operate freely or have the confidence to survive terrorist attacks. In fact, here's the admissions from some key PIRA members on this aspect.

"We were saying the armed struggle’s failed, it can’t win. The jails are filling up, people are dying left, right and centre and the British are getting the better hand on us.

Obviously we knew in our hearts that we were deeply, deeply infiltrated at a very high level.

“The armed struggle had to stop. We’d dump weapons, call the ceasefire, and then go into talks."

  • Frankie Quinn, senior member of the PIRA's East Tyrone brigade, one of the deadliest of PIRAs cells.

"The attrition rate was just so appalling.

The SAS, the British intelligence services were obviously in a position to intercept most operations.

It was absolutely clear that we were losing if we hadn’t already lost the war and that it was time to cash in the chips.”

IRA director of intelligence Kieran Conway

"It was a defeat for the Republican Movement, a complete military and ideological defeat across the board that opened up career paths for certain members of the leadership, but left us ideologically destroyed."

  • John Crawley, former US Marine Corps special forces unit known as Recon, set up a PIRA transatlantic gun running operation with the help of US Gangster James 'Whitey' Bulger & author of 'The Yank: My Life as a former US Marine in the IRA'

There's more than this, but I think this is enough to show that PIRA was defeated from the inside out and other ways.

Whilst there are still terrorist groups in Northern Ireland today, this is not what it appears to be either.

Although Loyalist terrorists are still on the proscribed terrorist groups list of the UK Government, in practice they're more like a criminal gang dealing drugs. They are investigated by the PSNI Paramilitary Crime Taskforce which deals with that kind of thing.

That leaves the Republicans. PIRA members are still monitored by the PSNI Terrorism Unit as is the New IRA. The reality is NIRA are not very good at what they do, are infiltrated and MI5 based near Belfast has them down. In fact, NIRA admit their terrorism is so ineffective and insignificant that they say its simply "symbolic"!

"We fully accept we cannot defeat the British militarily, or even drive them from Ireland, but we will continue to fight for as long as they remain here. The attacks are symbolic. They are propaganda." - New IRA statement

So, my argument still stands - its not possible to achieve a political settlement until or unless a terrorist group is defeated.

Again, you're making a false equivalence between* *the Northern Ireland conflict and the Israeli-Palestinian one.

You have to understand that the British Government viewed and still view Northern Ireland as an integral part of the United Kingdom. Does Israel consider Gaza to be an integral part of Israel?

PIRA was never able to carry out sustained terrorist attacks on England at any point. Their attacks were sporadic with most of them foiled, e.g. PIRAs John Crawley and his team were arrested before they could bomb electricity installations in south-east England around 1996.

In nearly four decades of terrorism, PIRA murdered approximately 1,800 people.

Compare and contrast that with the fact Hamas murdered more than 1,200 people – mostly civilians, including children - on 7th October 2023.

In ONE day Hamas* *murdered almost as many people than PIRA did in three decades!

So, why exactly would the UK have ever needed to bomb, blockade or cut supplies to Northern Ireland for?

I don't think you understand the differences between the two conflicts, their scales or that defeat is necessary before a political settlement can be realised.

To answer your last question, it is a brutal, tough reality to face that it's NOT possible to defeat Hamas without civilian deaths, including children. That is down to the nature of Hamas - they use Palestinian civilians as human shields and children as child soldiers!

In fact, according to the UnitedNations, the Palestinian Authority also use children as soldiers.

See attachment.

Now you have this knowledge....how would you deal with this problem?

Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
DownNative · 12/10/2023 23:44

@HiggleDyPigGeldy, do you have anything to say about the fact that the UN states Hamas AND the Palestinian Authority use children as soldiers?

"Both the PA and Hamas routinely indoctrinate Palestinian children to aspire to martyrdom through armed confrontations with Israel. According to Palestinian Media Watch (PMW), “the PA operates a systematic and institutionalized policy and program to recruit child soldiers/terrorists.”

In its reports to the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) on this issue, PMW accused the PA of indoctrinating Palestinian children to admire and emulate terrorists and noted that “The PA openly admits, that the child terrorists are not acting in a vacuum, but rather they consider them to be the PA’s soldiers who the PA has sent to carry out a mission.

Too many of you in this thread have taken offence at what Melanie Phillips said about how Palestinian children are taught to hate Israelis.

The United Nations below:

"PA television (TV) broadcast quizzes children on songs with “value and meanings” which PA considers expression of Palestinian “national identity.” One of the songs
depicts Israel as the “enemy” and encourages armed attacks: “I'm coming with my
rifle… I'm coming towards you, my enemy… with cleavers and knives.” (January 2021).

• Official PA TV children’s program commemorated cartoonist Naji al-Ala, by sharing
several cartoons encouraging violence among children, including one where Fatima
(Palestinian woman cartoon character) presents an AK47 to Handala (the Palestinian
refugee cartoon character) and one of her handing rocks to children. (August 2020).

• Fatah Facebook page promotes child soldiers by sharing video of Jordanian boy in military uniform holding slingshot and rifle. He wants to “shoot Jews” who killed
terrorist Omar Abu Laila (killed Israeli soldier, stole his weapon and shot to death
Israeli father of 12). (February 2020).

• Hamas TV children’s program interviews young children dressed in military fatigues.
One child says he wants to be an engineer when he grows up “so that I can blow up
the Jews.” The child host responds “Keep waging Jihad…when you grow up you will wage resistance against the Jews…” (September 4, 2015).

More from the United Nations:

"In addition, PA and Hamas educational programs routinely portray terrorists as role models and incite children to violence. For example, every year Hamas runs summer camps in which it trains children in military tactics and weapons use.

Likewise, summer camps run by Fatah and the Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) teach children to venerate famous Palestinian martyrs like Abu Jihad, who was responsible for terror attacks in which 125 Israelis were killed.

Therefore, it is no surprise that Palestinian children perpetrate violent attacks against Israelis and participate in violent confrontations with the goal of harming Israeli soldiers and civilians."

There is absolutely NO doubt that Palestinian children ARE taught to hate Israelis. Even worse, they're TRAINED to murder Israelis!

I think you owe Melanie Phillips an apology for telling the truth...don't you?

I'd also completely disregard the results of your poll....

Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
HiggleDyPigGeldy · 13/10/2023 00:13

I think sadly what I was afraid of when I wrote the OP is coming true.
In response to the despicable acts of a terrorist group, the government of Israel is committing genocide against the people of Gaza, egged on by hate filled people like some of those posting on this thread.

It’s very sad because inevitably, this will just fuel further cycles of hate and violence, more innocent people dying now and for generations to come. More anti Palestinian and more anti Israel sentiment as the world looks on and comes to the conclusion both governments in this region are barbaric all round.

OP posts:
HiggleDyPigGeldy · 13/10/2023 00:16

@DownNative seems like the poll is showing that others on this thread agree your arguments are besides the point.

I’m really sorry if something is happening in your life right now that makes it hard for you to see straight, and I hope you’ll eventually come to the conclusion hate is not the answer.

OP posts:
DownNative · 13/10/2023 00:31

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 13/10/2023 00:13

I think sadly what I was afraid of when I wrote the OP is coming true.
In response to the despicable acts of a terrorist group, the government of Israel is committing genocide against the people of Gaza, egged on by hate filled people like some of those posting on this thread.

It’s very sad because inevitably, this will just fuel further cycles of hate and violence, more innocent people dying now and for generations to come. More anti Palestinian and more anti Israel sentiment as the world looks on and comes to the conclusion both governments in this region are barbaric all round.

You really mean you're willfully blind to the actual reality of the situation.

Not only do you ignore NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence report into Hamas' Use Of Human Shields....you're now ignoring evidence from the United Nations that children in Gaza are not only taught to hate Israelis but are trained to carry out terrorism.

Just wow!

There is nothing anti-Palestinian in providing the actual evidence to prove your case. Unfortunately, you've failed to prove your argument in your Op and have tried to resort to the Affective Fallacy.

DownNative · 13/10/2023 00:36

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 13/10/2023 00:16

@DownNative seems like the poll is showing that others on this thread agree your arguments are besides the point.

I’m really sorry if something is happening in your life right now that makes it hard for you to see straight, and I hope you’ll eventually come to the conclusion hate is not the answer.

On the contrary, it shows those people really don't understand the reality of what's been happening in Gazan society for years.

I get that it's hard to accept and believe that Hamas use civilians as human shields, teach Palestinian children to hate and also use Palestinian children as child soldiers.

But my point all along is THAT is why Hamas MUST be defeated so Palestinian* *adults and children can have a chance of life!

The sad, tragic and brutal truth is that they never will as long as Hamas is around. You'll eventually come to the conclusion platitudes of love will not make the world a better place....

Cincills · 13/10/2023 00:42

@DownNative Each conflict in the world has its own particular bloody and traumatic history and expression. However, the key phrase to ponder in your passage about the IRA is ideological defeat. The principles of the Good Friday agreement were about cooperation, concession and universal respect for people’s rights and aspirations. It would have been impossible to achieve peace talks if the British army had continued to target Catholic civilians.

Khrushchev and Kennedy avoided nuclear war through personal connection to one another, empathy, and mutual understanding of the motivations of the “enemy”. Their secret letters to one another throughout the crises are profoundly moving and inspiring, and should be read by anyone who believes that peace is impossible.

In terms of this particular conflict, I’d like to see an immediate ceasefire on both sides, and I think that’s what the international community should be calling for.

But, at the very least, right now, the application of the Geneva Conventions is essential.

DownNative · 13/10/2023 01:34

Cincills · 13/10/2023 00:42

@DownNative Each conflict in the world has its own particular bloody and traumatic history and expression. However, the key phrase to ponder in your passage about the IRA is ideological defeat. The principles of the Good Friday agreement were about cooperation, concession and universal respect for people’s rights and aspirations. It would have been impossible to achieve peace talks if the British army had continued to target Catholic civilians.

Khrushchev and Kennedy avoided nuclear war through personal connection to one another, empathy, and mutual understanding of the motivations of the “enemy”. Their secret letters to one another throughout the crises are profoundly moving and inspiring, and should be read by anyone who believes that peace is impossible.

In terms of this particular conflict, I’d like to see an immediate ceasefire on both sides, and I think that’s what the international community should be calling for.

But, at the very least, right now, the application of the Geneva Conventions is essential.

@Cincills said: "the key phrase to ponder in your passage about the IRA is ideological defeat."

Not just ideological defeat since it was important to exhaust a small PIRA whose average age was 40 in the 1980s onwards compared to 20 in the 1970s.

As the Americans found out with the Taliban, it is useless to defeat a terrorist group militarily if you don't defeat them ideologically. The two go hand in hand.

“Yes, we defeated the physical manifestation of the caliphate in Iraq and Syria, but we never dealt with the ideology.”

  • Ali Soufan, a former F.B.I. special agent for counterterrorism and the author of “The Black Banners: The Inside Story of 9/11 and the War Against al-Qaeda.”

So, the UK defeated PIRA in both the physical (most members in prison or dead) and the ideological senses. The USA, French and Irish Governments dismantled PIRAs weapons smuggling on their territory too. It all adds up to defeat.

See PIRAs John Crawley who admitted PIRA were defeated militarily AND ideologically. Unlike you and me, Crawley was once in the US Marine Corps special forces unit known as Recon before joining PIRA. See attachment.

@Cincills said "The principles of the Good Friday agreement were about cooperation, concession and universal respect for people’s rights and aspirations."

Which was contained within Sunningdale 1973 and Anglo-Irish Agreement 1985, so wasn't anything new. Yet PIRA rejected both precisely because it wasn't interested in any of those principles. See attachment from "Making Sense Of The Troubles" by David McKittrick and David McVea stating "these ideas held no attraction for the IRA" (Sunningdale). As explained before, what the Loyalists did was something PIRA blatantly ignored as an irrelevance so their rejection of Sunningdale made 0% difference to PIRA.

Political settlement needed PIRA to be defeated. See PIRAs statement via Gerry Adams how "no Irish Nationalist or Republican could support it".

PIRA always viewed acceptance of those terms as....defeat. Only a British withdrawal would do, nothing else as far as the Provos were concerned.

@Cincills said: "Khrushchev and Kennedy avoided nuclear war through personal connection to one another, empathy, and mutual understanding of the motivations of the “enemy”. Their secret letters to one another throughout the crises are profoundly moving and inspiring, and should be read by anyone who believes that peace is impossible"

You're comparing apples with oranges now! Last I checked terrorist groups do NOT have nuclear weapons capability! Only a very select handful of States have nuclear weapons.

Of course, the US and Russia had no choice but to talk since they couldn't very well attack the other due to Mutually Assured Destruction.

A completely different ball game to a State's security battle against irregular, guerilla terrorist groups! Compare like with like. 🤦‍♂️

I believe peace is possible. But not when terrorist groups are well armed and highly active.

Hamas must be destroyed. That includes imprisoning and/or killing its members, cutting off their umbilical cord to Iran (difficult), destroying as many of their weapons as possible, strangling their ability to buy weapons, using PsyOps to Foment dissent in the Gazan population (unlikely to succeed), etc.

All or most of that achieved would pave the way to proper peace talks. The international community learned from PIRA abusing multiple ceasefires in order to rearm, even after 1998 which was then destroyed.

@Cincills said: "In terms of this particular conflict, I’d like to see an immediate ceasefire on both sides, and I think that’s what the international community should be calling for."

I think all of us on here would like to see a ceasefire. But very unlikely to happen, especially with a group like Hamas who didn't spend time planning the biggest attack on Israel for 50 years just to stop now!

And it seems to me the international community very much understands that point.

@Cincills said: "But, at the very least, right now, the application of the Geneva Conventions is essential."

See above and the UN paper on the use of Palestinian child soldiers by both Hamas and Palestinian Authority's Fatah.

None of the terrorist conflicts in Europe the last few decades had anything on the likes of Middle East terrorist groups such as Hamas, ISIS and Al-Quaida. These really are a NEW breed of terrorist groups - very resourceful, very adaptable AND very, very skilled at propaganda. They are called hybrid threats.

Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Roste · 24/10/2023 14:28

Yes it’s hate speech OP and some of the hate filled replies on this thread are abhorrent. Lots of word waffle to justify a disproportionate response murdering innocent civilians. Pointless in the scheme of things but doesn’t take long to find similar information : https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/i-picture-dead-arab-disturbing-video-israeli-childrens-words-echo-indoctrination
There will be no peace until both sides accept the reality that hate breeds hate and find a way to move forward. It will happen, eventually, when even the most bloodthirsty on either side tire of murdering innocents.

“I picture a dead Arab”: In disturbing video, Israeli children’s words echo indoctrination

Asked what he imagined when he was sitting in a tank, one boy answers, "I picture a dead Arab."

https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/i-picture-dead-arab-disturbing-video-israeli-childrens-words-echo-indoctrination

Bigbrotherpropoganda · 24/10/2023 14:38

Just posted on another MN thread called Eye Opening Documentary

Doc by Irish charity group made in 2017.

There are interviews from both sides . Worth seeing, very upsetting.

Pollyputhekettleon · 24/10/2023 14:42

Cincills · 12/10/2023 10:36

You appear to be referencing WW2. Don’t you see the thread connecting the current conflicts in Israel/Palestine and Ukraine/Russia to the trauma everyone involved suffered in the Second World War? And the genesis of that war in the horror and bloodshed of the First World War? And the origins of the First World War in prior colonial battles… and so on and so on.

There is no “war to end all wars”. Just generational trauma passed down to everyone involved. Look at the mental health of veterans. Evil cannot be overcome with evil. Violence creates more violence.

Oh so you're redefining winning and losing wars as being something to do with overcoming evil, mental health and trauma. Harry Potter mixed with psychotherapy. This is how language is made meaningless and history books have to be entirely rewritten.

Bigbrotherpropoganda · 24/10/2023 17:51

Roste · 24/10/2023 14:28

Yes it’s hate speech OP and some of the hate filled replies on this thread are abhorrent. Lots of word waffle to justify a disproportionate response murdering innocent civilians. Pointless in the scheme of things but doesn’t take long to find similar information : https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/i-picture-dead-arab-disturbing-video-israeli-childrens-words-echo-indoctrination
There will be no peace until both sides accept the reality that hate breeds hate and find a way to move forward. It will happen, eventually, when even the most bloodthirsty on either side tire of murdering innocents.

Thanks for posting.
How disgusting!!!!

AboutYouTalk · 15/03/2024 06:41

All those on here defending good ol’ Mel Phillips, did you see her performance on BBC QT last night? She is unhinged and dangerous and a liar to boot. This is someone who denies climate change and supported Andrew Wakefield. Nothing and I mean NOTHING she says should be taken seriously.

SerendipityJane · 15/03/2024 08:58

She didn't earn the sobriquet "Mad Mel" for her childrens stories.

KimberleyClark · 15/03/2024 09:09

MariePaperRoses · 10/10/2023 10:14

Muslim extremists so teach their children this because they hate the Jews. Note that I said EXTREMISTS.

As Golda Meir said "If Palestinians laid down their weapons there would be no war. If Israel laid down their weapons there would be a massacre."
And "There would be peace if when Palestinians love their children as much as they hate the Jews."

Classic dehumanising tactic - “they don’t love their children like we do”.

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