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Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips

118 replies

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 10/10/2023 09:06

In The Times today, Melanie Phillips page 26 article: “a small Jewish child, alone and bewildered, being tormented on a Gaza street by Palestinian children who are all taught to hate and murder Jews”

The thought of this poor child being tormented is beyond heartbreaking to me as a mother, and as a Jew.

BUT, how can it he acceptable for a major newspaper to print that Palestinian children are all taught to hate and murder Jews?
It’s not true for one (my son’s closest friend is a little Palestinian boy who is lovely, and his family, who are from Gaza and still have relatives there, are horrified by the violence that unfolded this week. We regularly spend time together and actually have a lot in common.)

By blanket painting all Palestinians, even children, as evil terrorists, the writer is inciting hatred. Which is exactly the opposite of what is needed now to stop the bloodshed on both sides!

AIBU to think that the media are inciting hatr

OP posts:
Thread gallery
22
Precipice · 10/10/2023 14:07

DownNative · 10/10/2023 12:40

I wasn't actually referring to YOU, @Coughingdodger. But speaking generally.

You are, of course, correct that the British Army was pretty restrained, especially in comparison to the Republican and Loyalist terrorists. 👍

Were they restrained when they shot civilians in Derry in 1972 or in Ballymurphy in 1971? I suppose they might have shot dead more civilians, and gracefully restrained from that. Being not as bad as paramilitaries is not a high threshold to clear.

I am not sure, however, why the Troubles are being raised as a point of comparison to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

RobynRB · 10/10/2023 14:09

DownNative · 10/10/2023 13:18

Which particular terrorists are you referring to in your 'negotiated with' bit?

Theoretical modern day IRA.... but never mind, let's not derail the thread.

Saschka · 10/10/2023 14:14

Melanie Philips has always been a racist piece of shit, so YABU to expect anything more from her. She’s a posh Katie Hopkins. She must be loving every minute of this, the perfect opportunity to vent her spleen without being censured.

TravelatorStopping · 10/10/2023 14:16

She is a horrific ‘journalist’ at the best of times. I would expect nothing less from her.

BlurredEdges · 10/10/2023 15:07

This is a very odd thread for a Jewish poster to post. All Jews know what MP is like. And in the hundreds of online and real life conversations we've all been having, no one is giving a moments notice to this.

People are terrified for their loved ones, grieving, dreading what the next few days and weeks will bring for both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. No one is talking about this.

DownNative · 10/10/2023 15:10

RobynRB · 10/10/2023 14:09

Theoretical modern day IRA.... but never mind, let's not derail the thread.

There is one which the media call New IRA, but they call themselves IRA. Oh, and they're infiltrated as well which is why they can't really get going. 🤷‍♂️

Other than that, not sure where you're looking to go with your train of thought.

DownNative · 10/10/2023 15:38

Precipice · 10/10/2023 14:07

Were they restrained when they shot civilians in Derry in 1972 or in Ballymurphy in 1971? I suppose they might have shot dead more civilians, and gracefully restrained from that. Being not as bad as paramilitaries is not a high threshold to clear.

I am not sure, however, why the Troubles are being raised as a point of comparison to the Arab-Israeli conflict.

The reality is that Bloody Sunday 1972 never happened again and the British Army trained for urban scenarios like that afterwards. Attachments show they had practically no riot control training.

After Bloody Sunday, the British Army were able to develop riot control equipment and strategies that's now used all over the world because its effective.

There was never a repeat of Bloody Sunday.

Similar to these:

www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/1060018046

The record over nearly 40 years does, indeed, demonstrate the security forces were restrained. Compare and contrast that with the number of people shot dead by United States police forces in the same period, for example.

As for your last paragraph, people are bringing Northern Ireland up because I guess it's the nearest they have to hand. But also because PIRA and Hamas are themselves linked in an international terrorist network. They trained at the same camps in Libya under Gaddafi. See mural attached.

But Northern Ireland is NOT anywhere close to being similar to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The PSF/PIRA link to Hamas is where any similarities between the two conflicts begins and ends.

Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 10/10/2023 15:58

all Palestinian children (obviously) are not taught to hate and murder Jews.

There has however been a lot of international concern about the school curriculum in Gaza.

Replace all with "many"...?

DownNative · 10/10/2023 16:36

PumpkinsAndCoconuts · 10/10/2023 15:58

all Palestinian children (obviously) are not taught to hate and murder Jews.

There has however been a lot of international concern about the school curriculum in Gaza.

Replace all with "many"...?

The term "many" is most accurate, yes. As always though, a dissenting minority voice is drowned out in the world.

The major problem for any Hamas dissenting Palestinian is Hamas will find them and murder their family. So, they can't really get their voices out to the world. Staying incognito is how you survive.

Staying quiet is how my family were able to visit relatives in a PIRA area in Ardoyne. People there never knew we were Catholics who disagreed with and hated PIRA. The world didn't know such Catholic voices really existed in Northern Ireland until well after the Troubles.

Circularargument · 10/10/2023 16:51

Coughingdodger · 10/10/2023 09:08

Didn’t read it but sounds a highly biased, inflammatory and irresponsible thing to print in a major national newspaper. Ffs.

Melanie Phillips, 'Nuff said.

Purplefriends · 10/10/2023 17:03

Cincills · 10/10/2023 13:00

That is a horrifically racist quote. Palestinians love their children as much as any other humans do.

Thing is, most humans love, or at least instinctively want to protect, other human children. It takes a special type of vileness to have so dehumanized another group of people that you would terrify, harm or kill their children.

FrippEnos · 10/10/2023 17:32

Just as a counter point to some on here, Yitzhak Rabin, The 5th Prime minister of Israel was murdered by Jewish extremists for his views on the Oslo accords and the PLO.

The hatred isn't all one way.

thinkfast · 10/10/2023 20:05

BlurredEdges · 10/10/2023 15:07

This is a very odd thread for a Jewish poster to post. All Jews know what MP is like. And in the hundreds of online and real life conversations we've all been having, no one is giving a moments notice to this.

People are terrified for their loved ones, grieving, dreading what the next few days and weeks will bring for both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. No one is talking about this.

100% agree

Coffeerum · 10/10/2023 20:17

@DownNative Staying quiet is how my family were able to visit relatives in a PIRA area in Ardoyne. People there never knew we were Catholics who disagreed with and hated PIRA. The world didn't know such Catholic voices really existed in Northern Ireland until well after the Troubles.

Surely that’s literally the point though, you are comparing post conflict with active conflict. In a previous comment you claim so many catholics and Protestants quietly didn’t support paramilitary actions, which was more true as time went on but at the same time seem unable to accept that the support for hamas among ordinary Palestinians might not be so easy to quantify mid conflict.

“The reality is Hamas control Gaza and most Palestinians support them.”

BlurredEdges · 10/10/2023 20:40

thinkfast · 10/10/2023 20:05

100% agree

Thank you. I notice this poster has no other posts referencing being Jewish. I would suggest approaching with caution

Cincills · 10/10/2023 22:10

Purplefriends · 10/10/2023 17:03

Thing is, most humans love, or at least instinctively want to protect, other human children. It takes a special type of vileness to have so dehumanized another group of people that you would terrify, harm or kill their children.

It does, and children are paying the heaviest price in this conflict for something they have no control over. They should all be evacuated immediately from the zones of conflict and allowed safe passage to a place where they can access food, water and medical treatment and are protected from the violence.

I imagine if your child is killed by what you see as an “other group” of people it would be the hardest thing to forgive. But the vast majority of human beings abhor such violence, no matter what colour their skin is or what their religion happens to be. You cannot overcome evil with evil. Every child that is killed or injured in this conflict creates more traumatised and desperate people.

It is a profound and dangerous mistake to convince yourself that any group of people loves or grieves their children less you do.

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 10/10/2023 23:32

Thank you to those who have educated me on Melanie Phillips - it all makes more sense now.
I must admit that I don’t usually read the times but today picked it up along with several other papers because I wanted to read a broad range of perspectives on the weekend news.

I’m a bit disheartened by all the people coming on here taking pains to say how unreasonable it is to expect mainstream media not to be racist, and generally (a) lump all Palestinians together, (b) equate all Palestinians with Gazans and then (c) all Gazans with Hamas supporters and Jew hating murderers.

I can’t see the conditions for peace ever emerging out of this.
People in Israel are reeling from their losses and wondering where their family members and loved ones are - and now their government is preparing to create the conditions for this cycle of violence to continue despite this type of action being a powerful enabler for Hamas gaining support in the past.

OP posts:
HiggleDyPigGeldy · 10/10/2023 23:38

As for those asking why I never mentioned being Jewish in previous posts:

  1. it has never been relevant in any previous post.
  2. I live in the UK. Don’t think I’ve ever posted about the middle east or politics in the past

There are Jews out there (I’m not the only one!) who are really concerned about the escalation of violence and who don’t see “all” Palestinians as a problem.

Like other posters have said about Ukraine, you can have people sharing one characteristic who hold different views.

OP posts:
DownNative · 10/10/2023 23:53

Coffeerum · 10/10/2023 20:17

@DownNative Staying quiet is how my family were able to visit relatives in a PIRA area in Ardoyne. People there never knew we were Catholics who disagreed with and hated PIRA. The world didn't know such Catholic voices really existed in Northern Ireland until well after the Troubles.

Surely that’s literally the point though, you are comparing post conflict with active conflict. In a previous comment you claim so many catholics and Protestants quietly didn’t support paramilitary actions, which was more true as time went on but at the same time seem unable to accept that the support for hamas among ordinary Palestinians might not be so easy to quantify mid conflict.

“The reality is Hamas control Gaza and most Palestinians support them.”

@Coffeerum thank you for bringing to my attention the sloppy, rushed wording of my last line you quoted which is this "The world didn't know such Catholic voices really existed in Northern Ireland until well after the Troubles."

What I really meant is that the average Joe Bloggs on the street for who Northern Ireland was a vague concept. My apologies for that sloppiness.

There is no question that the world DID know throughout that a clear majority of Catholics opposed Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA. Governments knew, especially the British, Irish and Americans. Many journalists were aware of it too.

Indeed, American political scientist Richard Rose's 1967 survey confirms a clear majority of Catholics didn't support the use of violence to end partition. See attached.

We can also point to the fact Catholics in Northern Ireland overwhelmingly votedfor the Irish Nationalist party known as the Social And Democratic Labour Party (SDLP) led by Gerry Fitt then John Hume. In fact Hume rammed this point home very publicly when he travelled extensively to internationalise the Troubles around the world.

Hume strongly argued in 1973, for example, that PIRA had no mandate from the people and that the community rejected them:

"We are under no illusions about that (PSF/PIRA) campaign. We are under no illusions that it had no mandate from anybody to get into that campaign. Neither are we under any illusions that if it has victory it will seek no mandate for anything else and that it will impose a dictatorship on the people. So, do not let anybody think that we do not oppose the work of the Provisional I.R.A."

And:

"...the reaction of that community (Catholic), having suffered so much, was to reject every single (PSF/PIRA) candidate who stood before it in the Assembly election without the slightest trace of sympathy for any organisation which supported violence in any shape or form."

The SDLP was the biggest Nationalist party from 1970 until John Hume's retirement in 2001 due to dementia. Spoke volumes to the world!

John Hume is very well known for his total opposition to PIRA and he publicly called them fascists. Catholics voted for him in such numbers that PIRA considered killing him. They didn't, but did firebomb his house using their youth wing and they did the same to Gerry Fitt's house.

The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was also well known which mainly had Catholics in it. Again, this group were strongly opposed to PIRA. NICRA achieved a load of reforms very early on too.

So, now it's been established that a clear majority of Catholics had always rejected PSF/PIRA throughout the Troubles and that this was known by the world. Only people who weren't paying much attention thought otherwise.

BTW, when I said we kept it quiet in Ardoyne, I meant from the Republicans on that street. The whole street was very pro-IRA and would have murdered us straightaway had they known we were Catholics who were pro-union. Republicans also attacked Nationalists, so you were fine if you were a Republican.

The same kind of evidence demonstrates that a majority of Palestinians support Hamas and a majority support more armed groups in West Bank too. Shown on page 1.

This is the exact reverse of Catholic support for PIRA during the then active Troubles.

Unlike NI Catholics with SDLP, Palestinians have overwhelmingly rejected the Palestinian Authority led by Abbas' Fatah party. Unlike PA Fatah, the SDLP proved to Catholics they were strong AND achieved things, e.g. Sunningdale 1973, Anglo-Irish Agreement 1985 and Belfast Agreement 1998. Provisional Sinn Féin and Provisional IRA were blamed by the SDLP led by John Hume for being the principle reason why Nationalists had various restrictions on daily life. People were obviously in agreement with Hume. Fatah has failed to convince Palestinians as a majority of the same thing.

It's clearly possible to quantify overall support for any terrorist organisation during active conflicts be they PIRA, Hamas, FARC, etc.

All the available authoritative sources tell us a minority of Gazans are opposed to Hamas - including NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence and the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research led by Khalil Shikaki. The majority are not opposed to Hamas. Like PIRA, Hamas intimidate, murder and exile dissenting Palestinian voices until a pro-Hamas majority in Gaza is left. Attached is an example of PIRA turning Riverdale into a pro-IRA estate.

Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
Hate speech in The Times today - Melanie Phillips
DownNative · 10/10/2023 23:58

HiggleDyPigGeldy · 10/10/2023 23:32

Thank you to those who have educated me on Melanie Phillips - it all makes more sense now.
I must admit that I don’t usually read the times but today picked it up along with several other papers because I wanted to read a broad range of perspectives on the weekend news.

I’m a bit disheartened by all the people coming on here taking pains to say how unreasonable it is to expect mainstream media not to be racist, and generally (a) lump all Palestinians together, (b) equate all Palestinians with Gazans and then (c) all Gazans with Hamas supporters and Jew hating murderers.

I can’t see the conditions for peace ever emerging out of this.
People in Israel are reeling from their losses and wondering where their family members and loved ones are - and now their government is preparing to create the conditions for this cycle of violence to continue despite this type of action being a powerful enabler for Hamas gaining support in the past.

Your second paragraph isn't really reflective of what's been said in the thread. The evidence demonstrates that a clear majority of Gazan Palestinians support Hamas with a minority rejecting them. Evidence from the Palestinian Center for Policy and Survey Research led by Khalil Shikaki has been given in support.

You, on the other hand, offer no such evidence to show otherwise. Anecdotes is not evidence. Indeed, you didn't really read what NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence report said about it and completely missed the part where it says "Gazans are not necessarily ideologically linked with Hamas" too. 🤦‍♂️

Cincills · 11/10/2023 00:45

47% of Gazans are children, who can’t be said to support Hamas or otherwise.

BlippiIsAnnoying · 11/10/2023 01:08

Melanie Phillips was quoted approvingly by Anders Brevik in his manifesto.

How she and India Knight still have gigs at the Times I will never know.

Coughingdodger · 11/10/2023 09:53

Cincills · 11/10/2023 00:45

47% of Gazans are children, who can’t be said to support Hamas or otherwise.

Exactiy.

MrsSkylerWhite · 11/10/2023 10:25

BlippiIsAnnoying · Today 01:08
**
Melanie Phillips was quoted approvingly by Anders Brevik in his manifesto.
**
How she and India Knight still have gigs at the Times I will never know

£ makes the world go round and thousands salivate over their bile.

DownNative · 11/10/2023 10:33

Cincills · 11/10/2023 00:45

47% of Gazans are children, who can’t be said to support Hamas or otherwise.

That brings in this specific part from NATO Strategic Communications Centre of Excellence's 2019 report:

"The Gazan defensive worldview is deeply engrained into the social fabric of the population. Children are raised to revile the enemy, i.e. Israel. There is limited critical thinking and access to information or to independent analysis. This significantly limits Israel’s ability to influence the Gazan population in such a way that it recognises the actual benefits of not being aligned with Hamas."

It goes on to discuss what could potentially be done to counteract that, but concedes deep penetration is unlikely.

"The likelihood of a narrative or strategic communications plan to have this penetration is unlikely."

Children can grow up to support Hamas. That's enabled Hamas to go from having fringe support in 1987 to having majority support from 2021 onwards.

Terrorist groups are highly effective at limiting information to their communities since critical thinking can hurt support levels for them.