AIBU to think 15-minute cities are a good thing?

[ForthegracegoI]

I live in a 15-minute city location and it's absolutely brilliant.

Within 15 minutes walk I have easy access to:

Multiple cafes, bars, pubs, restaurants.
Multiple hairdressers, salons, barbers etc.
Many, many shops.
Several gyms.
Cinema.
Two swimming pools.
My oldest's high school is literally across the road. My youngest's school is slightly further, probably 12 minutes walk.
My GP, gynaecologist, dentist, optician - all within 10 minutes walk.
Trauma centre: when my youngest fell and broke his arm on the way home from school, he was in the trauma centre and being treated straight away. We walked there, and walked home afterwards.
Hospital - DH is having an operation in a couple of weeks: he'll walk there, and probably walk home a few days later
Veterinary surgery.
Small supermarket and two different fresh produce markets, and loads of bakers / grocers / 'metro' type supermarkets.
Huge park, including a zoo and botanical garden.
Four smaller parks with play equipment and outdoor gyms - one literally across the road.
Bus stops, underground stops and the main city railway station is (just) within 15 minutes walk.

The 'price' I pay for this:
We live in an apartment, not a house.
We don't have off street parking (we do still have a car for holidays / weekend trips / trips to IKEA for big items) but we do have resident parking - it's never been a problem to get parked.

For work, DH and I both cycle - 25 minutes each way. It's a great way to build exercise into the daily routine. Our apartment building has a secure bike storage room in it.

So as not to drip feed; we don't live in the UK, we live in France. We aren't huge earners - DH is a teacher, I work in administration in a school. We are definitely in a 'naice' area, but it's not super-wealthy at all.

I can't understand why Rishi Sunak would actively campaign against making essential services easily accessible to people living in cities.

I don't live in the UK.

I'm familiar with the kind of suburb you are talking about, "new build estates/bed towns" put right on the outskirts of towns. A friend I met on my last visit has just moved away from one of these because she regrets her purchase; she needed a car for everything, there were no nice public shopping areas where people met and mingled and it was a depressing place to live. She is moving to a terrace and will sacrifice space, but can't wait to move. She wants her kids to be able to walk to school and at least some of their activities; at the moment she spends her life driving them about.

(They are not the only brand of suburb; you also get suburban areas which were built along the lines of the old tram lines before they got ripped up; these areas often have little shopping areas mixed in among them).

It's too late to do anything about the new build estates plonked on the very edge of towns where a car is needed for everything, but perhaps we could try to avoid this as our model going forward, and do more brownfield development in mid-town areas? A huge amount of space in cities is currently occupied by parking areas and car parks; put housing there instead and develop good light rail and tram lines instead - bingo. There is nothing weird or outre about what I am suggesting; cities all over Europe have done development along this kind of model, and it works just fine.

It may still be possible to create some islands of services even in bed town type areas. Noah Smith is writing about American perspective, but his ideas on what to do about suburbs that are currently very car dependent are worth reading. Life in the New American Suburbs - by Noah Smith (noahpinion.blog)

To a pp, I didn’t say high density, I said medium density. Buildings 5-6 stories high, with say 10-12 appartments each. Residential streets but plenty of commercial areas close by.

another difference I guess is that we have medical services, including gps, everywhere. They are basically self employed so can set up wherever they want. In my street alone within 2 minutes walk there is an eye clinic, various physios, nurses (for home visits or treatment), midwives, psychiatrists etc. They usually set up in an adapted apartment, ground floor for easy access. It’s the same for laboratories, hospitals, imageries (X-rays and scans etc) and clinics - they are semi private, so smaller ones are scattered through the city - rather than one massive out of town hospital that everyone has to trek out to. And being France, there are pharmacies everywhere.

We do actually have most things in walking distance as is London which is a bit like interconnecting areas

But we are in houses not medium density housing. It seems a good mix to me

One of several reasons why it's a good idea for cities to get parking under control is that it makes this kind of mixed-use development easier.

If every journey involves cars and motorists are allowed to park everywhere, it is impossible to have businesses and shops mixed in with residential buildings, because residents understandably get fed up of patrons bringing traffic into areas and parking their cars all over the streets. So businesses and shops have to be located elsewhere....which increases the need for everyone to drive for everything.... and it's a vicious circle.

@user1477391263

it's a vicious circle

And will continue to be until we sort out public transport, especially in the North of England and other regions. People really shouldn't have to leave their homes at 7.30 just to guarantee arriving at work/school by 9am just 5-10 miles away, yet that's the reality of public transport in lots of Northern Cities. Then people wonder why cars are so popular! Or the last train home out of their city being as early at 7:20 in the evening (and even then it's often cancelled with no rail replacement bus provided!).

The reality is that successive governments and local councils (over several decades) have allowed, if not, encouraged "centralisation" of public services/amenities, retail, businesses, etc. to the detriment of local neighbourhoods and that's going to take decades to reverse.

I don't live in the UK.

I'm familiar with the kind of suburb you are talking about, "new build estates/bed towns" put right on the outskirts of towns.

I live in suburb PikachuChickenRice talking about - actually last 3 places we lived have been these in suburbs mix of Victorian and later housing or one 50/60 housing estate.

Prior to that it was center of city/town we lived difference was wanting garden for kids. I do know some of DC friend raise in quite decent flats ex council when council built for quality and low rise blocks - they all want houses with some outdoor private space and to get away from people complaining about normal kids noise.

We did used to walk through a new estate - early 2000s - in last location we lived to get to out town cinema complex beyond it - it had nothing no shops no GP no schools - to do anything you had to drive down a busy A road - it was bizarre and I think increasingly to get planning permission new estates have to build amenities.

We don't drive - so usually are looking for some local services - few shops GP schools etc - in one we picked there usually been a supermarket - but we look to be 30-50 minutes walk from urban centre and that urban centre to have train station with good connections - we also looking for regular bus services.

We do big on-line grocery shopping and top up from near by shops - so 15 minutes walkable big supermarket isn't necessary for us. My DP in a village get most of their shopping and most things these days on-line and delivered to their door - as they can't walk 15 minutes a 15 minute neighbourhood wouldn't improve their lives - as long as the hospital they have to go to have hospital transport they can book they are fine.

My issue is public transport trains and buses getting increasingly expensive and unreliable - so I'm with PikachuChickenRice - in UK it's more getting public transport improved.

I don't need everything 15 minute walk away - I just need to be able to get to services/amenities withing reasonable timeframes and cost.

clare "I think it's an absolute scandal that LTNs are held up as a solution to anything when all they do is compartmentalise people into those worthy of clean air and those unworthy of it, based exclusively on the road in which they live."

I call them HTNs. The effect on local traffic is appalling. The Mayor's office putting out that video saying "traffic has disappeared".... was that some sort of experiment to measure stupidity?

@HotApplePiePunch

I don't need everything 15 minute walk away - I just need to be able to get to services/amenities within reasonable timeframes and cost.

Nail on the head. I think the current "15 minute" push could actually end up detrimental. There's no real need for it, it's just a political stunt. The real need is better/cheaper public transport, then everything else will follow. There'll be less need for people to use cars, businesses along bus routes will have greater foot flow to help them survive and grow, etc.

I'll never get to our nearby town in 15 mins - it takes that long by car. Half an hour by bus would be fine if it was a regular and affordable service - but it's not, and that's the real problem.

Yes, I thought you didn't live in the UK.

These aren't 'new-build' estates, everything has been here since the 70's. We're surrounded by trees, birds and nature. Also ancient woodland. What I would find depressing is living in a 'mid-town' area surrounded by lots and lots of other people and their noise.

You're talking about putting houses in the city but that's not my point. Those who want to live in the city are welcome to do so - but many of us don't WANT to. I've provided the solution, better public transport but somehow you've ignored this in favour of harping on about car dependence.

People wouldn't need a car if there was public transport to take them to the social areas. I've made this point many times but somehow nobody has an answer as to why this won't work. Other countries have minibuses, transport etc with apps and things these days it would be easy to schedule something one demand.

Exactly!

It’s all made up nonsense anyway. Scraping the barrel.

"Nail on the head. I think the current "15 minute" push could actually end up detrimental. There's no real need for it, it's just a political stunt"

I notice you say "current", where are people seeing this please? To me it's really old info.

Other countries have minibuses, transport etc with apps and things these days it would be easy to schedule something one demand

I saw some thing about London area having trials for things like this.

https://www.ukauthority.com/articles/tfl-to-use-app-in-on-demand-bus-trial/

Seems there are other ares that have such services:

https://www.wmca.org.uk/news/coventry-s-ring-ride-and-bus-on-demand-services-set-for-trial-merger/

I'm not sure why it's not more widespread - local taxi firms are all on apps you book or pre book and can watch vehicles get assigned to you then track them to your location.

Completely agree. It's not a sustainable situation and I just hope that good sense prevails sooner rather than later. There are other solutions which do not involve separating people into those deserving of clean air and those undeserving of it.

As for saying traffic has disappeared, that's nothing short of gaslighting. There are 1800 additional vehicles a day on my boundary road, and those are the council's own figures.

I'm still amazed these proposals even got off the drawing table (but then I suppose the allure of free funding and a steady revenue stream from fines proved too much for many local authorities to resist).

I have GP,optician, 2 parks,a small Co-op, pubs, coffee shop,charity shop, pharmacy, hair salon within 15 mins walk. More choice of shops etc within 25 min walk. We live fairly centrally in a small city. Can be in the city centre in 15 mins by car.

Rishi Sunak is not necessarily opposed to 15 minute cities. He is simply doing scattergun "opposition" to loads of things that have never actually been formally proposed in the justified hope that some of them will be picked up and run with by the Daily Mail and repeated until they are lodged in people's minds as the truth. It's a very effective campaign strategy. Bent bananas, banning Christmas, banning sausages, person hole covers.....exactly the same tactic.

clare "There are 1800 additional vehicles a day on my boundary road, and those are the council's own figures. "

Many councils aren't registering vehicles that go over the cable at <5mph per hour as well.

There's no thought for bus users, to the extent that I wonder if they want to phase buses out of parts of London. Buses are much better for those of us with any health issues - you can get nearer to where you are going and walk a shorter distance. The bus will stop directly outside hospitals too. But the bus journey from where I was in Zone 5 just going into the edge of Zone 2/3 became twice as long.

The bus is obviously cheaper as well.

I have a complicated set of health problems that stopped me from driving but
I might have to seek further help here as getting back in a car would be so useful.

I date the rot as going back to the pedestrianisation of Trafalgar Square, things were so much easier when traffic could go there. Everything from London spreads out, so I still have half an eye on these problems, plus I have to go in for work sometimes.

the people who love LTNs are the ones living in them - wealthier, obviously.

Virtually everyone had that (and more) a few decades ago. Your area has done well to keep it, most havn't - due to poor planning from councils, the war on motorists, decades of reducing investment in public transport, building huge supermarkets and out of town retail parks etc. The fact you've still got it is more a matter of luck than political/council planning - luck that your area hasn't suffered stupid council policies mostly. Where I used to live, in a suburb of a big town, we had all that, i.e. a couple of convenience stores, post office, chip shop, newsagent, chemist, fishmonger, bakery, etc - council swept in and put double yellow lines down and speed humps - all that has now gone! Well done council! We're just left with a few converted shops into flats, a tattoo parlour and a plumber's office - no retail at all!

I agree that only a tiny minority are benefitting from the LTNs, being those who are able bodied and who live in the middle of them. Those on the fringes will still be impacted by the concentrated noise/pollution to some extent, and those who are not able bodied have faced huge struggles here to get taxis etc. Someone was actually told on a forum that they should cycle to their hospital appointments (!!).

It's farcical, and I just hope it's all over soon, and chalked down as a waste of time and money and an experiment never to be repeated.

Nail on head. Come back Boris, all is forgiven, at least people never believed anything you said in the first place.

Of course no one would be forced to live in a city. And of course people who need to travel (or indeed wished to,) would be able to.

It's about having lots of community resources close at hand. If people wanted to drive to an out of town mass produced in China shop, they can. The rest of us will be happily drink coffee in a nice cafe after buying their veg from the grocer who knows just how ripe they liked their tomatoes.

Trouble is the councils are making it hard, or impossible, for people to drive in some areas. That's no use for people who have to take SEN children to school in those areas, or to hospital in those areas, etc etc.

In our nearby town, the lunatic council are proposing to pedestrianise parts of the one way system which is the ONLY thoroughfare from one end of the town to the other. The hospital is at one end of the town and the only way to get there from the other end would be a 15-20 mile detour taking probably 30 minutes or more, along a by-pass, then on a motorway, and then coming into town from the opposite direction. Yet the council officials and green councillors don't think that's a problem! So, hey ho, when I take my OH for his chemotherapy infusions, I have to pollute more, cause more congestion to do their stupid detour, or take the bus (they've so far failed to address how the "through" buses will get through the pedestrianised central areas!), the bus from our house taking over an hour, due to having to change twice, and a poor irregular timetable, and that's just to travel about 5 miles! Of course, he could cycle which is their other option - being on chemotherapy and being weak etc may mean that's a little difficult for him!

The lunatics are taking over the asylum!

Badbadbunny OMFG. The lack of consideration for hospital patients really bugs me. Pretty much no parking at the Royal Free in Hampstead and chaos for UCH when they put up bollards for cycle lanes - I think that's been altered due to problems with ambulance access but who dreams up this nonsense?

I thought hospitals in dense urban areas were designed for public transport and taxis rather than private car use

Yes, but if you're taking someone for regular treatments, you might want to do that using the car you have rather than booking a taxi. Not saying there's no parking at the Royal Free but it's hugely reduced.