AIBU to think 15-minute cities are a good thing?

[ForthegracegoI]

I live in a 15-minute city location and it's absolutely brilliant.

Within 15 minutes walk I have easy access to:

Multiple cafes, bars, pubs, restaurants.
Multiple hairdressers, salons, barbers etc.
Many, many shops.
Several gyms.
Cinema.
Two swimming pools.
My oldest's high school is literally across the road. My youngest's school is slightly further, probably 12 minutes walk.
My GP, gynaecologist, dentist, optician - all within 10 minutes walk.
Trauma centre: when my youngest fell and broke his arm on the way home from school, he was in the trauma centre and being treated straight away. We walked there, and walked home afterwards.
Hospital - DH is having an operation in a couple of weeks: he'll walk there, and probably walk home a few days later
Veterinary surgery.
Small supermarket and two different fresh produce markets, and loads of bakers / grocers / 'metro' type supermarkets.
Huge park, including a zoo and botanical garden.
Four smaller parks with play equipment and outdoor gyms - one literally across the road.
Bus stops, underground stops and the main city railway station is (just) within 15 minutes walk.

The 'price' I pay for this:
We live in an apartment, not a house.
We don't have off street parking (we do still have a car for holidays / weekend trips / trips to IKEA for big items) but we do have resident parking - it's never been a problem to get parked.

For work, DH and I both cycle - 25 minutes each way. It's a great way to build exercise into the daily routine. Our apartment building has a secure bike storage room in it.

So as not to drip feed; we don't live in the UK, we live in France. We aren't huge earners - DH is a teacher, I work in administration in a school. We are definitely in a 'naice' area, but it's not super-wealthy at all.

I can't understand why Rishi Sunak would actively campaign against making essential services easily accessible to people living in cities.

You also can't build things like cheap supermarkets

We have multiple cheap supermarkets in my area, which is walkable and downtown. I can head out to the supermarket and be back with multiple bags of shopping within 30 minutes end to end. When my suburban mother does the shopping, it takes up a whole morning; she has to drive out to the supermarket, get into the massive car park, grind around slowly looking for a parking space while trying not to hit all the other millions of closely spaced cars, shoppers and trolley, make her way to the actual supermarket, do the shopping, then do all the same in reverse. I know as I've done it with her many times!

I actually love the idea of living within walking/biking distance of everything I need. The notion of a neighborhood that is mostly self-contained and I don't have to leave it on a daily basis is kind of what I have in the village where I live.

But I chose this. And if I want to move far out into the country, I can. If I want to get in my car and go, I can. If I want to move, I can. And I have ZERO desire to force everyone else to live the way I live.

That's the difference. When we "right-wing nutjobs" want to live a certain way, or not live a certain way, we just do it. But we don't force everyone else to live the way we want because we're just CERTAIN they'll agree once they shut up and do as they're told.

A healthy skepticism for government intervention served us VERY well for a long time. We've given that up over here, and the decline is rapid and severe. It's heartbreaking how eager some people are to put on shackles. I'll take dangerous freedom over safe slavery all day every day.

It's pretty much impossible to develop good public transport unless you allow more housing development in the urban core (i.e., more people living there); you don't have to live there yourself, but you will need to tolerate other people living there instead. That is because the suburban stretches of public transport lines are usually loss-making due to the low population densities; dense urban cores are needed to ensure that you have got these highly profitable stretches in the middle to effectively subsidise all the other parts of the lines.

Nobody is forcing you to live in the center of town. That said, you will have to tolerate the fact that the center of towns will change once you have got more people living there, because cycle and bus lanes will result in less road space being available for your car, because much of the new housing will be built on what used to be parking space, and because new residents in the city center will gradually start to agitate for more controls on cars coming into the center (because they don't want pollution or car-strewn roads and they will want to be able to bike more easily). The city center will become more pleasant, but will also change in its nature as its goods, services and layouts will gradually tend to orient themselves towards the tastes and needs of the residents in the center, rather than suburbanites who come in much less often.

I think that in their hearts, this is a large reason why the Edgware residents are so upset about the Ballymore development. Nobody is forcing them to live there, but yes, the central part of Edgware will change, and older people are often set in their ways and like things the way they are. I do have some sympathy, but I also think the Edgware OAPs need to have a bit more compassion for the many young people in London who desperately need housing, and try to empathize with the fact that some people prefer different ways of life and that that's OK.

My worry is when a vunerable person can't hop in their car, and I include poverty as well as disability here.
Jump in their care, drop kids wherever, get to work. There's no way I was cycling dangerously with my kids for longer time to please the government's energy board.

Encourage less meat every day maybe?

15 mins cities and such crap is what Mickey Mouse politicians come up with when they run out of ideas to do the big stuff.

It shows the state of much of the UK populace, when aiming to have a GP and shop within short reach of people living in cities, is shouted down as ‘woke’ and ‘controlling’.

If people vote for the Tory’s based on conspiracy theory nonsense about being stopped from driving to their kids SEN school which is further than 15 minutes away (as stated in a few of the earlier PPs), then they deserve everything coming to them if the Tory’s get back in and close the SEN school as part of a plan to cut spending.

The Katie Hopkins following idiocracy is gullible beyond redemption. Now they have their appointed representatives in government, they are dragging us all down like crabs in a barrel.

Exactly this!

I suppose I am one of those vulnerable people you're using as a shield to protect your car ownership. I quite like being able to use my bicycle/tricycle, or just walk across town, without dying thanks.

If you really gave a shit about us you would advocate for accessible communities with drastically reduced numbers of cars.

We moved from a village where a car was needed to do most things because the previous bus service was cut to a suburb where I have access to facilities within easy walking distance. I can walk to three supermarkets, countless convenience stores, doctors, library, cafes and restaurants. There is also far better public transport.

I love it, yes it may be slightly noisier but not as much as I envisaged. We still live in a house with a garden.

I respect your desire not to live this way.

I disagree that people “aren’t meant” for to live this way. I think it shows a lack of imagination and empathy that some people (me included) like these areas because of the buzz, the people and because we prefer using public transport to driving.

I know many car drivers can’t imagine the latter, but it’s true for me. I’d much rather read, people watch and relax on public transport, than drive.

Perhaps as an interim step, we could look at how to eliminate food deserts.

And then move on to reinvigorating high streets and other little rows of shops (which died out because they weren't profitable to run). Will people really change theit habits when it hits them in the pocket?

Honeybadgermom, the argument falls down when one persons way of life negatively affects another, we're all connected

I live rurally and can’t think of anything worse than being somewhere with all that in a 15 minute walk. I have a village shop,
a pub, a visiting post office and anything else is a 15 minute drive away or a min of 30 mins to get to a well serviced big town. I suppose if you like city living then there are no doubt lots of benefits but you couldn’t drag me to one of those places, sure the townies would hate my lifestyle equally

I see Mark Harper is now into tinfoil hat mode at the Tory conference.

I mean, I knew the Tories were going to go a bit barmy and conspiracy-theory-y once they'd lost the election and were cast into the wilderness, but I didn't expect it to start happening when they are still the party in charge of the country.

I could never live in the city, it's bad enough living on the edge of a town.

Some of my 'essentials' are within 15 mins drivem, but none a 15 min walk. However, none of my my actual life is spread all over. My work, horses, hobbies and social life is well out of a 15min radius.

I have zero interest in walking to a shop (can't think of the last time i ever done that!) or cycling anywhere. And i haven't got on a bus since i passed my driving test at 17.

dont know what happened to my typing skills here!

"Some of my 'essentials' are within 15 mins drivem, but none a 15 min walk. However, my actual life is spread all over. My work, horses, hobbies and social life is well out of a 15min radius"

Sadly, this has been precisely my experience with LTNs which have been brought in locally. They have had disastrous consequences on local traffic flow, leading to excessive amounts of congestion and pollution on a small number of roads which are, quite frankly, unable to cope with it. The local authority has, however, been making a huge amount in fines. It is difficult to escape the conclusion that this is nothing to do with improving air quality (certainly not for those who have to live on boundary roads, or those who have to travel down them) but is essentially a way of plugging holes in the council's finances. I think it's an absolute scandal that LTNs are held up as a solution to anything when all they do is compartmentalise people into those worthy of clean air and those unworthy of it, based exclusively on the road in which they live.

I live in London zone 3 that counts as a suburb and I walk everywhere. We don’t own a car though most people locally do. We’re lucky to have amazing public transport so can also take the bus or tube. We had lovely LTNs in lockdown that people then marched against and they’ve been removed since… the LTNs made me and my DS cycle more but I don’t any more as I don’t feel safe and I’m not very confident, plus the buses are very easy.

in terms of what’s available a short walk away:
baker
deli
loads of small and large supermarkets
GP
physio
yoga studio - or yoga classes at various community halls or schools at weekends or evenings
Primary and secondary schools
my dentist is a bit further but is walkable - but not 15 mins
libraries (nearest two I never understand the opening hours as they’re now run by volunteers, more Tory cuts…) but the main one I can walk to, though 20 mins
gym with a pool
big high st shops - M&S, Primark, Waterstones, Tiger, Decathlon
public swimming pool is a longer bus ride away. Even the other public pool that got closed in covid was a bus ride away
Cinema is now walkable
loads of local parks

@Crapsummer2023

It shows the state of much of the UK populace, when aiming to have a GP and shop within short reach of people living in cities, is shouted down as ‘woke’ and ‘controlling’.

Nope, it's because most people have something called "realism", and the reality is that everyone will end up paying, though ever-increasing taxation, for a few people to enjoy having lots of facilities on their doorstep.

I wouldn't mind if those living in "15 minute cities" paid for them, but in reality, it'll be everyone who pays through taxation, even those living in smaller cities, towns and villages, who've not got a hope in hell of lots of facilities within 15 minutes of their homes!

Successive governments, of all colours, have spent decades dismantling local communities which did have schools, shops, libraries, GP surgeries, bus routes, etc., and it will take decades to build them back up again, not to mention billions of pounds of taxpayer money.

Doesn't need the planners. If it takes off, it'd free much of the on-road parking - you could have cycle lanes in every road and still have more space than now. City car parks would no longer be the money spinner they are now, so would be released for other uses, ditto the acreages of privately owned car parks around airports.

I know many car drivers can’t imagine the latter, but it’s true for me. I’d much rather read, people watch and relax on public transport, than drive. I agree with you. I could never understand a colleague who commuted daily from Swindon to London, by car. But then, even at that time (40 years ago) I had enough autonomy to be able potter into work at about 10, and carry on till 6 or 7 pm, so I never had to worry about getting a seat, or being hit in the head by the bag of someone standing.

Or we could just plan to increase the number of taxis, subsidise them, etc., which gives the same result at probably much less cost than all the manufacturing & infrastructure cost of driverless cars. And increases the number of jobs, so will help keep unemployment low! More taxis would mean less subsidies etc for buses, many of which are carrying around only a handful of people for most of the day! And of course, far more flexible, as fixed bus routes would be a thing of the past, so would open up transport options for those living in smaller cities, towns and villages not close to bus routes.

Useful page of evidence https://www.sustrans.org.uk/for-professionals/infrastructure/an-introductory-guide-to-low-traffic-neighbourhood-design/an-introductory-guide-to-low-traffic-neighbourhood-design-contents/design-guide/all/8-a-guide-to-the-evidence-around-low-traffic-neighbourhoods

(some people are saying that LTNs push traffic to boundary roads; they don't).

The best bit of some of the reactions to LTNs is 'well, I'll have to stop using my car then'. Yes, that is the point!

Most small shops died out through lack of demand, when councils allowed huge out of town supermarkets and retail parks to be built. We had a traditional "corner shop" newsagents for 20 years in the 70s and 80s. On a parade of shops including a butchers, greengrocers, grocers, bakery, hardware store, chemist, and off licence. Guess what happened when a bloody great Asda opened up across the road just half a mile away on previously designated "green belt" land. Yes, all the shops closed, one by one! That was nothing to do with driving, we'd all just stand at the shop windows and despair at all our previously "regular" customers walking over to the Asda and back.

Same has just happened in our village a few years ago. We had a Spar shop, which was pretty good really, nice staff, etc. A new Co Op was built that just sucked all the village custom and inevitably the Spar closed shortly afterwards. Again, nothing to do with driving. The "loyal" local customers just decided they preferred the Co Op, where the prices aren't much lower and where the range of goods is poorer, i.e. no local produce, such as bread, eggs, meat, pies, etc which the Spar sourced locally, which is allegedly what people want, but the Co Op just sell the big brand mass produced stuff.

If we want small shops back in the community, then, firstly, councils and government need to reduce business rates, subsidise other high costs such as waste disposal (council bin wagons don't collect trade waste unless the business pays through the nose for it on top of business rates), stop the war on motorists, i.e. stop putting traffic calming and double yellows outside shops, etc. Small shops are highly unlikely to be profitable these days (unless located right outside a school or other high footfall location), so if we want them, we have to make the effort to shop there, and govt/councils need to provide support, grants and subsidies!

There'd be the ongoing costs of hiring a driver. As you say, they would need to be subsidised so as not to exclude a lot of people. And a lot of single women would feel chary of using a taxi late at night

Mind, a lot of people would feel just as worried at using a vehicle without a driver, despite the big improvements in AI (AI is now more accurate and quicker at solving those Captcha images than humans - bots are better than humans at proving they're not a bot )