For telling my friend to be careful with the language she uses around her daughter?

[Lolabear38]

A good friend I’ve known for 20+ years.
Friend has been recovering from anorexia for the last 10 years but has seemingly replaced the anorexia with obsessive exercise and counting macros - it’s all she can talk about and she will prioritise exercise over everything, going to the gym for hours a day. She also won’t eat certain foods if they’re over macros and is absolutely rigid about it.

Friend has 3 daughters - eldest one of whom will constantly be snacking or asking for snacks. I.e if there is a plate of biscuits she’ll eat until every one is gone, regardless of how many there are. She will ask for snacks when she can’t possibly still be hungry etc. Friend speaks to her in what I think is a really inappropriate way - e.g ‘you can’t still be hungry, you’re so greedy’, ‘put that cake down, you guts!’ And on one occasion ‘that’s not for you, put it down, fatty’. Her daughter is 7 and not overweight in the slightest though I would say she maybe has issues or potential issues with food. Friend doesn’t talk to her other two dd’s like this though from what I’ve seen they tend to be quite happy to have one biscuit/ snack then go off to play.

Anyway, the other day we were all out and went to get ice creams. All the kids had one but when it was her eldest’s turn to say what she wanted she asked for a double scoop ice cream and friend replied with ‘I might have known you’d be the one to ask for extra, of course one scoop wouldn’t be enough for you, greedy guts’. This was said quite unkindly. As we walked I said to her that I thought as parents of girls (and actually girls or boys, but as we are both girl parents this is the language I used) it’s really important to think about the language we use around our daughters and think about how it affects body image etc, and maybe think about how she speaks to her eldest when it comes to food rather than talking in a way which might make her feel ashamed or build a bad relationship around food or eating. Friend went absolutely crazy at me, telling me I was way out of line to talk to her like that, it’s up to her how she talks to her own kids (true) and she would never dream of having a go at me about how I raised my own kids. Since then we’ve not spoken at all, I sent a message saying I was sorry if she was upset by what I’d said and that wasn’t my intention. She’s ignored it. Was I out of line? To be honest, every time I hear her talk to her dd in that way it makes me wince a bit and feel so upset for her daughter, I can’t bring myself to say to her I didn’t mean it because I really did. What do you think?

It sounds to me like your friend has encountered a normal parenting issue, but because of her past history, is handling it badly. Lots of parents find themselves needing to impose limits on snacking and treats, but she's focussing far too much on the "fat" aspect as opposed to the "health" aspect. For example with the ice cream, most parents would say "no, it's just one scoop each today". Have you given her suggestions for alternative language she could use?

This is one of those occasions it's right to say something. It's not micromanaging normal parent behaviour or being smugly superior, you are trying to stop her from making an awful mistake that will drive her daughters away from her and may give them the same lifelong issues she evidently has

I hope this at least makes her reflect when she calms down.

You were right to say something. Your friend is not recovered and is passing on her issues to her children.

It's normal for parents to hold boundaries with snacking, but not to do it in an unpleasant and shaming way.

I wonder if the reason the child might be always hungry is if your friend isn't giving appropriate portion sizes at meals, leaving her daughter taking what she can, then getting shamed for it.

The daughter is already reacting to her mum’s obsessive behaviour. Well done for trying, op. Poor girl.

FWIW, it doesn’t sound like your friend is even remotely recovered at all. I swapped anorexia for orthorexia and considered myself ‘recovered’ too and I was not, at all.

You did right and I wouldn't apologise. I'd stick to the point you made. You love her but you can't stand by and let her pass body image problems onto her daughters without saying something. She has struggled all her life and knows how hard it has been to come through that, so why replay it with the next generation. I'd stay firm. Her language is cruel and you are right not to passively witness it. It takes a village to raise a child, in the sense that it is important to step in when you see gross injustice being done to a child.

Her poor kids, she is already creating food issues for them. Terrible parenting. Since I doubt the friendship can be rescued, I probably would say something to the father as well.

I wonder if the reason the child might be always hungry is if your friend isn't giving appropriate portion sizes at meals, leaving her daughter taking what she can, then getting shamed for it.

Part of me also wondered this to be honest. Knowing the language this child often hears and how her mother feels about portions to me a 7 year old eating an entire plate of biscuits doesn't suggest she's greedy or scoffing food but rather that she's hungry and often not getting the amount she needs. Are her portions often the same as those of her younger siblings?

I agree with this. I never mention weight/fat etc around my kids but I will call them out for being greedy. I don't think that's wrong. It's one thing to say 'you can't have two scoops of ice cream because you'll get fat' and another thing to say 'you can't have two scoops of ice cream because that's excessive and greedy'. Similar to saying you should exercise to be healthy, rather than you should exercise to lose weight. Your friend may not handle things perfectly but I bet she's trying hard to do it the 'right' way.

I think you were right to say something. I don’t think I’d bother saying anything to the Dad though, he possibly has his own beliefs about women’s weight and eating that make him compatible with something with an eating disorder.

You acted from the heart - and you've even apologized (although I think you did the right thing)

You were right to speak up.
When I was 9 years old my father called me fat, greedy and a gannet.
I developed anorexia not long after. It wasn't just his words and there were other very complex things going on, but I've never forgotten what he said to me.
I'm now 48 and very unwell again with AN.
We should never shame our children, as there are other ways to establish healthy relationships with food and eating.

This. It's unlikely that the poor girl's issues with moderation aren't related to her mother's behaviour. Even without the worrying background, her language to her daughter is emotionally abusive and I would be considering involving someone from outside in this.

Best to instil a love of healthy eating , portion control and movement in children .

There is zero need to say to any child don’t eat x,y or z or you’ll get fat.

If you do you’re making them obsess over body image rather than focusing on the health benefits of healthy eating and exercise. How it can make you strong and energetic and live longer and feel better.

I can’t believe people are saying it’s ok to say don’t eat two scoops or you’ll get fat to a 7 year olds. It’s also not true.

Yes, you’re absolutely correct and I teach my daughter the same things. It’s the language she uses that concerns me, not the fact she’s trying to stop her daughter from over eating. I think there’s a really fine balance to it and by using the words she is using she’s actually doing more damage rather than helping.

I totally understand why you said something, but I would have handled it differently, maybe almost humorously. I think I would have said “tell mummy to stop being silly- you can never have too much ice cream! It’s the best!” just putting it out there that the 7 year old can have her own view. It’s a tricky one, because food is clearly a problem In that house, so it’s always going to be a dynamite topic.

Me niece is an absolute greedy guts and if we allowed her to eat everything she wanted to she'd be obese and have diabetes.

You did the right thing and I would also speak with her husband.

Your friendship is probably done for the time being anyway so I can't see the harm in expressing your concerns to him. She will be feeling shamed, exposed and pretty defensive (absolutely not your fault) so will be keeping her distance. That's sad but sometimes it's more important to talk about your worries with someone and hope they sink it at some point that hold back to save a relationship. There's children at risk of harm/being harmed at least emotionally by this.

It's really worrying that her girls are being exposed to the disordered behaviour and language and dad can seek guidance around this even his wife won't.

Does she also have a mother who has disordered eating habits and uses derogatory language towards her in terms of food and her appearance?

Thanks for the input and I hope you don’t take this the wrong way but I wouldn’t say this at all, it could come across as undermining my friend in front of her children (regardless what the reason behind it is). I’d be very angry if someone did this to me, but we are all different!

Some of the language around eating and weight in this thread is very offensive. It's perfectly possible to limit the anount a child is eating without using shaming language such as greedy... you can just say "I think you have had enough for the moment..let's put away the biscuits" or whatever. Also fatness isn't "unpleasant", it's now recognised as a chronic illness with multifactorial aetiology.

I completely agree your friend is still deep in her eating disorder thoughts and behaviours. Anyone with knowledge of eating disorders knows that however it manifests (bulimia, anorexia, orthorexia, overeating...) the underlying thoughts are the same and very very distressing for the person and everyone around them.

No blame anywhere here, not on your friend, yourself and certainly not on the child. The dynamic is very dysfunctional and potentially very damaging. You were right to try and help your friend see what she is doing. Unfortunately I'm not at all surprised with her reaction as she sounds very unwell. Very tricky.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, I’ll certainly take them on board. Just to clarify I agree that my friend should be teaching her kids healthy eating habits and portion control - for e.g. eating a whole plate of biscuits isn’t healthy. It’s the language she is using with her daughter that is really concerning me. I’m not suggesting that her dd should be allowed to eat whatever she wants 👍🏻

I agree.

I doubt there will be outside help though. I actually remember reading a weekly diary of a social worker in their industry magazine. She was working with a family who had an overweight daughter everyone made fun of for being fat ( that was not the reason for the social work intervention). The family just laughed and ignored the social workers advice on why they should not do this and the social worker clearly felt unable to do anything to change this.

Some of the language used on this thread is quite shocking! Calling children greedy guts, ‘fatness is unpleasant’. It’s not surprising people have so many issues around food if these are the messages we give out!!

OP - you were right to say something but I doubt it will have an effect - from what I understand AN is a powerful illness. The poor child.

as for those wanting to limit portions for children - we model portion size, we talk about making sure we stay hungry for dinner and not filling up on sweet stuff with limited nutrients. I would never call DD greedy for ordering two scoops, I would just remind her that it’s a lot of ice cream and she still needed to be able to eat her meal etc.

The mother's use of cruel, judgemental and spiteful language is likely driving the girl's attitude towards food, and other posters' use of the word 'greedy' is making me flinch. This is a girl who's receiving verbal and emotional abuse from her very unwell mother and she's seeking comfort and control. Her strategy is the opposite to her mother's - it's to eat compulsively rather than starve compulsively.

I know there is a significant proportion of Mumsnetters who align far more closely to orthorexic and anorexic behaviours and don't have any understanding or empathy for disordered eating that manifests differently. There are plenty of women here who think the worst thing imaginable is to be fat, and will justify any behaviour in defence of trying to avoid this outcome.

This little girl's self image and self worth is being systematically destroyed by her mother's eating disorder, and her own distorted and terrible relationship with food is being cultivated.

You were right to speak up, OP, but I doubt the mother can understand where you're coming from. I'm sure she loves her daughter and can't see how damaging her treatment of her is; her illness makes that impossible.