AIBU to think the disabled are the next target?

[Locutus2000]

The Guardian

Though Jeremy Hunt said the government was “not in a position” to contemplate a decrease in tax immediately, he said the welfare budget could be hit further down the line to foot the bill.

He told the Times that 100,000 people a year were “moving off work into benefits without any obligation to look for work” – a sign he said showed the system was not working.

The welfare system had to be a “mix of carrot and stick”, with more assistance required to help people find work, given there was “no shortage of jobs”, he added."

Funny how 'carrot and stick' always equates to 'more stick'.

SueV

If these voluntary community groups can be set up to support people with disabilities to do some work and stop being isolated.

Why wouldn't you advocate for them to be set up and pay a fair wage rather than as slavery in exchange for benefits?

Threads like these and some attitudes on them make me sick

And if it’s voluntary they can decide not to do it. That’s how something being voluntary works

So basically.... when do they bring back work houses? This seems to be the way some posters would like things to go.... and as for the "free hours" from nine months and mothers having to go back to work then... what's the point in having 52 weeks statutory maternity leave entitlement if those who rely on UC top up are forced back after nine months because they dare to be on, say, minimum wage?

Well yes, one look at mn - the tells you that’s a huge problem. However they can’t because of reasons. This reminds me of a post on the school thread. Those laughing and mocking, they are coming for you next.

Anyone with any critical thinking would spot this problem a mile off. You cant keep taxing an ever decreasing minority of workers into oblivion and expect a good result. We are getting poorer and poorer because of an aging and sickening demographic. The majority of adults are now reliant on the state. That can’t go on. We are actively getting into debt to fund it. The problem is, it will mean the neediest will suffer. People won’t listen though - that’s problem.

Tax the rich waaaaaahhhh. People are too short-sighted to realise that you can’t keep pissing off the people who fund the state when dependency is the highest on record.

Politicians are having listen as too many external agencies are now making these issues and fiscal facts public knowledge. Labour will have to think a little harder about how they are going to sort this. Tax burden is the highest on record and so is state dependency.

If community work is voluntary, then it is possible for someone to say no to it and not have their benefits cut.

If refusing to do the community work leads to a benefits cut, it isn't voluntary.

Which approach do you advocate, @SueVineer ?

Most people don't get paid for 12 months mat leave, they fund themselves if they want to take the last 3 months unpaid. Why should it be different for those on UC ?

Thank you. I had given up, but will look again. Good point about it being about not being able to do things consistently/reliably.

I had to give up work as all childcare arrangements for my child with severe learning difficulties broke down. I would love to work again. Looking forward to his government helping people like myself back into employment. Not to mention my child (who needs 24/7 care) when it finishes school.

Some of the 52 weeks can be taken prior to the birth so the period of maternity leave should account for the period of leave before the birth until childcare kicks in.

That all depends on the disability. Some will be of no use to an employer as they will need a lot of short notice sickness leave. My cousin was a teacher un till she was attacked by a pupil ( she had a chair smashed across her back) she loved her job but the pain and she is in means she can only stand or sit for very short periods of time and some days can't get off the floor if she falls onto it. Would you want her as your child's teacher, there for a few days and off for a week ? Not to mention the strong painkillers she takes, most of the time she is so spaced out she is not able to use a kettle, write her name or even to go into the garden alone. What job would you recommened for her ?

The disabled aren't the next target. We have been the target for well over a decade. I suggest you start looking into the numbers of people who have died within six weeks of being declared fit for work.

Unfortunately there aren't enough reasonable adjustments in the world to make working a realistic prospect for many disabled people. Employers and voluntary organisations need reliability and people like me can't give them that.

I have schizophrenia. I'd love to work, but my mental health isn't reliable enough for me to hold down a job. Many employers would run a mile from someone like me anyway, thanks to the stigma associated with severe mental illness.

The tories already think the disabled are worthless!
Yes I've been assessed as never being able to work with no need for further assess

Assessment

It isn't whataboutery to question targeting those looking after the most vulnerable above other unemployed groups. It makes more sense for someone to work 35 hours and be self sufficient than have LPs of babies overstretching themselves to not save the country any more money because they still need topping up with benefits. When employers complain about not being able to fill jobs, it's those with -20 hours, some are under 15 hours.

It’s unsustainable to have 2.5 million people permanently out of work due to illness an ageing population, just under 30 million working (22.5 million working full time) out of a population of 67 million. It doesn’t add up when only a third of the population is working full time.

I think it gets past the point of whether it’s moral or not to shove people into jobs and becomes a matter of necessity for tax revenue. The reality is you can’t do much about pensioners or people with severe disabilities but I think anyone who has the potential to do more hours or find some sort of work will be expected to.

The reality is many people who are working part time will be doing it out of necessity due to health or caring obligations and they are often women. I have no idea how the government (any government) would be able to square that circle, going into paid work but having to withdraw unpaid caring work will have other knock on effects.

Your poor cousin. I’m sure someone will be along to say that pupil had unmet needs and is the true victim, but honestly he/she sounds vicious and cruel, and has no place in a school setting.

The govt are going to "consult" about doing away with the work capability assessment and and determining who is too ill to work by their PIP award.

This is complete bollocks, because PIP is about the need of care/assistance/support people need to carry out a narrow range of tasks, while the work capability assessment does what it says on the tin.

I work in welfare rights for a charity that supports people with MH issues. A lot of my clients get awarded LCWRA on the grounds of risk, ie there would be a "substantial risk" to them or someone else if they were required to work or undertake "work-related activity". Some of my clients are so very unwell that they cannot have any social interaction with anyone other than their MH team without having a total meltdown. They only leave the house to go to MH appointments. They would literally rather die than have to meet anyone outside the tiny circle of people that they know and trust. They have to have PIP assessments either over the phone or occasionally at home, with someone from their MH team there to support them through the process, ditto appeal tribunals (around 50% of them don't get PIP at application, and have to appeal).

If the review goes the way we suspect it will, and the "substantial risk" criteria goes, what will happen to these people if they are sanctioned for not doing attending appointments that would tip them into crisis?

In terms of looking after the most vulnerable, the 9 month old of a lone parent is biologically similar to the 9 month old of a family with two working parents. They can go to nursery for 15 hours. They will be fine, perhaps they will even benefit. Meanwhile the parent can work. It’s a modest expectation and it’s really not that much to ask.

And of course lone parents working 15 hours would save the country money. There is the immediate savings in terms of earned income being offset against benefit entitlement, but also the pension contributions, career progression etc that mean the worker will hopefully need less state support in later life.

The "solution" is simple.

You focus on changes that increase productivity in a beneficial way.

1. Childcare (more women work)
2. Better Education (more skills)
3. Better healthcare (this one is a bit trickier)

If you want to "grow" the UK economy and make it more sustainable, that is how to do it.

I haven't mentioned housing of transport because that is a different issue (NIMBY related) which will be difficult to solve.

But this means, you have to make use of the resources available (financial) in a more targeted way.

So pensioners need to get less. There is no way around that now.

If we want more people to work we first need to put better resources into supporting people with disabilities in the work place. Not just box ticking but actual proper personalised support.

many disabled people want to work but the system doesn’t let them.

I think this is much more nuanced than an “evil Tories” issue ( not that I have any time for this lot). We have a very narrow view of disability and health issues I think and the solution lies in a comprehensive mix of changes in employer attitudes, better illness prevention, better in work support, more recognition of the value of carers, shorter waiting lists etc etc. No party is going to crack that quickly.

I also think we have a narrow view of “pensioners” and a lot of the rhetoric is about the triple lock being purely a vote chasing policy. It may well be, but the number of people of pensionable age living in poverty and relative isolation will only grow given our current demographic…and then when you add that to the issues I listed above it is clear to see that taxation policies will only scratch the surface

Sorry to be a misery on a Saturday night!

I agree - so many do not understand how the state pension works.

The state pension is TAXED if it goes to anyone with an income above the personal allowance - which would include those millionaires.

Pensioners have often worked for 40 years plus and paid taxes and NI - they deserve their payment
.

Those on pension credit with the freebies have probably not paid in as much or indeed anything.

Oh Lord, somebody’s summoned the perpetual ageist, anti pensioner poster from somewhere. Watch the thread turn into an age bashing fest.

Why go pensioners need to get less?

Do we also need to pay less UC, less in top ups, less in childcare vouchers etc?

If you mean an "across the board" reduction, in top ups, benefits etc. then that's probably another subject.