School refusing to provide translator

[CapturedLeprechaun]

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

GeneralLevy · Today 12:54

I’m surprised how out of touch so many on mumsnet are. In some major cities there are whole areas with schools 100% mono cultural and non-British, with functioning shops/ markets and entire community around them. It’s not like just staying in.
I’m just surprised so many have never walked in these areas or are even aware of them. Across London there’s many small versions for other cultures m.

I don't think people are unaware of this.

I don't think it's something to be celebrated, though. I think it can make it easier for people to avoid integrating with the wider community, learning the language and having their cultural practices challenged.

Many are simply brought here as brides, no say in the matter. Paperwork done. Into families and very small worlds, no free time around children and food and house. No agency or power at all.
I was introduced to a woman who was asking for houses to clean. She’d been brought here and kept in the house… then left completely alone with older primary age girls (had 3 girls, left- he went abroad I understand). She just knew nothing about the world, even how to make typically clean an English home. A neighbour and I sat her down and taught products. She was clean and very well kept girls, but just didn’t know English norms for work and how houses were.
Turned out she was so lonely, we ended up for a while she would cook at mine a few nights for company. I paid for ingredients and she made enough for two families. It was just a company thing, and to speak English as we spoke together around.
It genuinely shocked me how isolated she’d been, from a Bangladeshi village to London. Still in culture shock yet had ann11 year old. She’s not really seen anyone but him. It was a mess.
There was some happier ending, with housing eventually and a move. But she was a year reliant on cleaning jobs and anything she was given. This was outside the wider community in an area with few that spoke sylheti round here

I get the impression from this thread many aren’t aware

Which is why it’s even more important to learn the language so you can access help or support.

I highly doubt this situation is the case for 80% of people in OP’s school.

However in the OP’s situation in principle it’s reasonable to expect families to learn a language, but it doesn’t exactly help the families NOW Ho can’t suddenly speak English overnight. I think it would be better if this was a policy for new families from say September 2024

But why would they be aware? What’s wrong with that?

Not everyone lives in London, and people living for example in rural Scotland or leafy North Yorkshire aren’t going to have a wander down to London to gawp at random communities.

Most people tend to gravitate around where they live and venture outside that area for work or trips. I can’t imagine there’s much tourism in 100% non-British communities so why on Earth would everyone be expected to know these places exist?

Our school is similar. There is support staff for Romanian families, and I think that’s okay as long as it helps people settle and integrate.
But I’ve also encountered several people (mostly women) who don’t speak any English at all, and that couple of years after freedom of movement ended, so they must have been here for at least over a year.

As a happily integrated migrant, I feel sad to see what's happening to the country I love.

Same here.

why on Earthwould everyone be expected to know these places exist?

RTFT would help, it's been amply discussed. I'd like to see some of the people in here move to Bangladesh, work in a sweatshop all day, run the household, look after their kids, and then see how much energy they have left of an evening to teach themselves to read in a brand new writing system.

Of course it would be better for the parents to speak English. No-one's disputing that. But evening courses and EFL teaching have been slashed under the Tories, and there are huge barriers in place. If provision like this is removed, some parents will no doubt make efforts to improve. Some won't. And in the meantime, their already disadvantaged kids will be falling further behind. That is not good for them; nor is it good for society as a whole. Other countries do provide language support in schools despite what people are claiming.

Honestly I can see why it doesn't seem like a budget priority. But it's not as clear-cut as some people seem to think.

I think we should probably prohibit cousin marriage (at least some of the "village bride" marriages are being used as a way to get relatives into the country) and put some stiffer requirements in place for those coming into the UK by marriage, honestly, like some educational and English proficiency requirements and a minimum age of 25 or whatever. It would make it harder to "import" brides who are likely to be truly vulnerable.

I am married to an Asian man and would expect that his educational level and English proficiency would be looked at if he expected to get the right to permanently reside in the UK as a spouse. I live in (his) Asian country, speak the language well, work and pay tax etc. It's important to be a proper part of the place you are going to be living in.

My DM got to know a local Sikh family in the 70s as her 2 boys went to the same primary school as me and my DB. Her DH wanted to keep her isolated and she’d been set to go to medical school before marriage. My DM taught her how to make bread and she saw how an English family lived. She was so unhappy that she got her parents involved and was set to divorce. Luckily with mediation she stayed and integrated and her English was good and she got a job in immigration at Gatwick airport.

The examples I’m giving here though are so important as to why integration into the wider community and English are crucial.

I often notice that some of the older Indian/Pakistani women have more English language and integration skills, especially if they work eg in a family business like a pharmacy or shop. I’ve worked with a lovely older Pakistani born English woman as a legal secretary, who was fluent in English and was very aware of cultural differences and privately disagreed with some of them to us in the office.

Anyway, back to the original post which I sort of agree with and sort of don’t, based on my answers.

We lived in Spain for a decade whilst DS was at school. Absolutely nothing offered in English from day 1. You took a translator or you got your child to translate when they were better at the language than you. Obviously you took steps to learn the language yourself. This is about 15 years ago but is no different now. Obviously instant translation apps weren't available then. Very similar situation in medical settings.

In the UK we are so frightened of offending people and being seen as racist we often go above and beyond what should be provided, often at great expense when funds and resources are limited and could be better directed.
This school should absolutely scale back its translation services.

I work in the NHS and agree this wouldn’t happen to ensure informed consent. We can’t always rely on family members, as we can’t be sure they’re translating effectively. For instance I work in mental health and one time had to use a family member (can’t remember why as there is language line in an emergency). Anyway part of our role is to assess the suicide risk, and the family members refused to ask the question in case ‘it puts ideas in their heads’.

I do understand interpreters are expensive and resources stretched, but it wouldn’t sit comfortably with me either.

I think OP also agrees with the school but worded her OP so it seems she is on the parents side.
Just an observation, but could be wrong.

Also no one is saying that it should be "celebrated", but as an issue it won't go away by ignoring it.

Why would I as a white woman want to move to Bangladesh to live and work as a family? Of course I wouldn’t! If I was to marry someone from another country to my native country then I’d make an effort to learn the language. Or I wouldn’t move there.

As @user1477391263 we should prohibit forced and arranged and cousin marriages. These marriages aren’t just limited to Indian/Pakistani etc families, a woman who’s an architect, I know, in her mid 30s married a family friend from Vietnam so she could marry and have kids. He probably wanted a British passport as they didn’t know each other at all, she was reluctant but wanted marriage and kids.

How many sweatshops are operating in the UK?

IDK but weren't there some issues with sweat shops in Leicester during lockdown?

Yes absolutely, they are a problem, not countrywide but in some parts of the country. https://www.jamhoor.org/read/you-are-not-welcome-here-race-and-hostility-in-britains-fast-fashion-industry Places like nail bars also use a lot of trafficked labour.

Having read your updates YANBU. This is being done for ideological reasons rather than money saving.

They could have a policy of "we'll translate for the first year, and then after that we can't guarantee translation but will offer it when there's no extra cost involved."

Most nail bars I’ve used recently have had more men working there than women and one I used last summer the young woman (Vietnamese parents) owned the salon and lived in Home Counties.

Yes, and they still are. They're just better at covering it up now.

@ASCCM I hope you realise your privilege to think that that’s a choice people just get to make.

Most of these parents haven’t just fancied a change and can’t be arsed to learn English 🤦‍♀️

Yes you have to be careful with nail bars and also car valeting places.

It's ridiculous that the head won't even allow letters that already exist to be sent out after a year. Petty and clearly ideological. I'm with you, OP. I think it's awful and it's the kids that will suffer.

We should prohibit forced and arranged and cousin marriages

Not sure how we'd do that, unless we stop recognising other forms of marriage which have taken place outside the UK?

As with the admittedly different subject of FGM, we can try to prevent it happening here, but can't really do much if folk take their daughters elsewhere for whatever-it-is

I wonder if this would also include parent who are deaf? 🤨