School refusing to provide translator

[CapturedLeprechaun]

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

I know the french don't.
I think it's a hangover from colonialism I.e. immigrants seen as almost childlike in their lack of ability to do certain things and needing our help (as Top Nation).
When in fact we are too poor to provide this level of service and no longer TN at all.

Would French schools provide me FOC French lessons

Yes. As discussed above, France offers state schooling in English, specialist teachers and classes for new arrivals with no knowledge of French, and free in-school French tuition for parents.

@GonnaGetGoingReturns

So, they know enough English to claim their benefits, then?

No-one saying "the school has a responsibility to the child" seems to answer the question of "Why don't the parents have the same responsibility?"

They rarely do, milj1213, but then parental responsibility - as opposed to that of others - isn't always a welcome subject on here, and especially not when it involves those with some protected characteristic

And as for the comment that it would have looked better if the Head had taken a "How can we work on this" approach, how do we know they hadn't?
It wouldn't be the first time that provision had been offered and that folk chose not to use it, expecting that someone else would continue to pick up the pieces, and that applies to all communities

I’m with you op, particularly given the costings you have supplied and the fact that they have templates and will be producing separate letters for the new children anyway.

The parents should learn English yes, but we don’t know their limitations and even if it is just laziness, I don’t think the kids should suffer as a result. It sounds like these kids are already from a deprived background, they will have enough disadvantages without their school adding to the list.

This does feel very unfair and divisive and I would be uncomfortable too.

Well they must do, yes. Or they help each other with it. Or they get children to help with forms. My friend (Chinese/Vietnamese) said as a child she constantly helped her mum and dad to fill in forms as they couldn’t do it.

I’ve worked in a law firm with immigration and they had Korean and Iranian clients but most of the immigration clients had sponsors, eg wives etc.

If a migrant through a law firm applying for remain in UK residency test etc then they have to fill in the forms themselves and take the test (can’t recall if it’s written, spoken or read now).

My Iranian lawyer boss told his clients they had to do the above if they wanted to pass the immigration remain in UK test. Same with Korean clients.

I don't even disagree that withdrawing someof the provision is idiotic, especially stuff like letters where they're a templated resource that has already been created and is just sent out en mass anyway,

Unless the information is is the same for every class every year, someone still has look up the information and fill it in. In the case of PE kit mentioned above, finding out when is PE for every class. Then finding out how many letters in which languages are needed for each class. Then the cost of ink and paper for printing.

And assuming the staff were not otherwise sitting twiddling their thumbs, something else is not being done while they are doing this.

Should would could... none of this helps the children from these segregated communities today. I recommend reading the book "Brick Lane".

Schools don’t have infinite resources though.
They provide support for the children who aren’t native English speakers, in OP’s case they also support the parents for the first year, but they can’t do it indefinitely.

I’ve read the book thanks and worked round the corner from there for 6 years!

It really isn’t my issue if people don’t make any effort to integrate into the wider community, learn English, rely on children to translate and blame cultural norms.

If you read my previous posts you will see however I do have sympathy with women who are culturally stopped by husbands etc from learning English and working. And I also said more work needs to be done within the community so men including husbands understand the need for their wives to learn English and work, if they can.

Slightly off-topic, but I've read a couple of pps using the phrase 'the school has failed (child)"

This always infuriates me as an ex-teacher because frankly, the school is often the only thing which hasn't failed a child.

I get so cross that no government or institution (particularly educationalists) are prepared to blame parents for anything. It's always someone/something else's fault, but never the parents who won't support their children. I realise you can't make inadequate parents do what they should be doing, but a little honesty and criticism would be good. Why is everyone so scared of them?

Similarly - some pps are telling us (what we already know) that some cultures are very restrictive in their attitudes to women, and resistant to adapting to the mores of a new country which they have actively chosen to live in. Why is no clear criticism made about this? Again, what are educationalists and institutions afraid of? If cultural practices are compatible with life in the UK - no problem. But if they are affecting the chances of women and the children of the family, then we should be confidently critical. I just have never understood why we are all so scared and mealy-mouthed.

But it's easier to blame schools and teachers, isn't it? From my experience as a teacher, they are always willing to kindly take on blame for all society's ills. And they're polite and generally not likely to scream abuse back at you if you criticise them. Schools and teachers in this country to an AMAZING job in difficult circumstances and should not have to take on every single problem and its attendant costs.

Incidentally - I've worked with children of various ethnic minorities and all the families have been brilliantly supportive and enthusiastic about their children's free education in this country. But clearly some are just not pulling their weight, from what I read on this thread, and that needs to be called out.

It’s been an issue for years though eg Jewish communities not integrating fully etc.

The cultures I see who find it easier to integrate and learn English in England appear to be Eastern Europeans.

I'm an immigrant (although I've lived here for 15+ years). English is my 3rd language. Personally - if you choose to move to a country, you should integrate. Speaking the language is part of that.
It's not the school's problem the parents can't be bothered to learn English. I think even providing translators/interpreters for the first year is extremely generous.

One thing I found worse than having no English was that the women were always chaperoned by husbands/male cousins to healthcare appts

Even if you have no common spoken language - it's still possible to show your bruises/injuries, mime or draw a picture of what's happening at home behind closed doors if you have some privacy

It’s been an issue for years though eg Jewish communities not integrating fully etc

Even those in quite closed communities do speak English.

You could say this about anything though - the person who stuffs themselves with UPF's every day and needs to be treated on the NHS for their weight-related illness, the extremists who need to be rescued from remote mountain regions or whilst trying to row across the English Channel at the tax payer's expense. It's arbitrary to draw the line here.

My child is in a similar school.
It's mostly women of the Romanian community (yes, some men too) who have zero command of English language. It's painful to watch what goes on at the school office in the mornings. It's teens of the family who translate for their parents.

I don't see the situation as a failure of the school to provide services - I see it as a failure of uncontrolled & unmanaged immigration that is not conducive of integration (is it ever conducive?).
Providing a translator at school, won't solve those same issues elsewhere and the effect it has on the wider community. The effect on everyone - the migrants themselves and the British born & bred.

As a happily integrated migrant, I feel sad to see what's happening to the country I love.

I personally think that people saying that some immigrants just won’t learn the language (or let their wives learn it) and that’s why it’s on the schools to pick up the slack and pay expensive interpreters actually creates more division and animosity.
Especially when on the other hand people are told that the country needs immigration to fill gaps in the labour market and that people come here specifically because they speak English.

If cultural practices are compatible with life in the UK - no problem. But if they are affecting the chances of women and the children of the family, then we should be confidently critical. I just have never understood why we are all so scared and mealy-mouthed.

I remember when teaching of British values was introduced, there was a lot of complaining here on MN. Why British values? Why not just 'values' some people said.

OK then what or whose values should we teach? American - everyone has the right to carry a gun? French - ban the burkha? Afghan....?

One thing I found worse than having no English was that the women were always chaperoned by husbands/male cousins to healthcare appts

Men are not allowed to enter the mobile breast screening unit here. Whether that means some women don't attend breast screening, I don't know.

I am aware of that. I’m talking about integration and often letting men eg husbands deal with certain aspects of life eg forms for benefits etc.

I have to say, although many people will be here due to difficult and traumatising circumstances- I think if you go and live in a country and use public services like schools, you should make an effort to learn the language. I don’t think it’s acceptable to live somewhere 5 years and not have a basic grasp on English.

Yes but we are talking about this issue here, which relates to not being able to converse and then integrate within the wider community.

Trust me, the law firm where I worked we had women sometimes ring us in a panic, asking if they could get divorced, sharia law etc, one of them met our Iranian lawyer (as chaperone) and the divorce lawyer. She had no idea of her rights in England but was unhappily married and believed most of what the mosque/her community told her about sharia law/divorce.

I’m surprised how out of touch so many on mumsnet are. In some major cities there are whole areas with schools 100% mono cultural and non-British, with functioning shops/ markets and entire community around them. It’s not like just staying in.
I’m just surprised so many have never walked in these areas or are even aware of them. Across London there’s many small versions for other cultures m.

In one law firm where I worked, all the Asian (Pakistani/Indian) clients had their men folk act on their behalf. Usually it was above board but the women usually had little or no say in a legal matter. And went along with cultural norms.