School refusing to provide translator

[CapturedLeprechaun]

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

Is it a uk thing to view non-English speakers as unfortunates who can't be expected to make the effort (or have the intelligence) to learn English? And we're talking about people who have been here for over a year?

It's odd (or bs) that we are supposed to welcome immigration because the reason that immigrants come is because they speak English, and have the gumph to come here.

There is an incredible number of free learning resources online if one can't get to physical courses.

But nobody is saying they have to learn to be fully fluent in English in a matter of weeks, just that they need to acknowledge that if they are not fluent then the onus should be on them to source a translator at their expense, not the school's. Doesn't even need to be a paid translator, a friend or family member can do it, but the onus should be on the parents to provide the translation as the default, not the school.

The school is educating the child, the school is setting up meetings to advocate for the child when they have issues with learning, the school is doing what they can to support the child so why can't the parents support their child by putting in the effort to get a translator so they can support their child?

I agree with this and many other similar comments. If you move to the U.K. to better your and your children's lives, then take some responsibility and learn English. I would do the same if I moved to another country where they spoke a different language. I don't believe anyone living in the U.K. permanently should be able to utilise our health care (what's left of it), benefits, schools, etc if they cannot out the effort in to learn English. By not learning the local language (this goes for anyone living in a country where they don't speak the native language) they segregate and restrict themselves to only associating and interacting with people from the same ethnicity & language. I'm not suggesting they learn English in an attempt to erase their own language, beliefs, etc. But they need to start learning the language and assimilating into the local community and nation as a whole so they can better understand the local customs, values, expectations, rules etc. It can't be all take and no give.

This is the same reason I dislike visiting and staying in overly touristy places on holiday. I refuse to go somewhere that is infiltrated with Brits where the area has been hugely altered to cater for English speaking people. Of course I find it helpful when I go on holiday to another country where the local language isn't English. But I always always make an effort to speak and understand the local language first.

Of course it's the right move.

Whilst translators are provided there's no impetus to learn English.

I had a Ukrainian living with me for a while, she spoke OK English but through her I got to know lots of other Ukrainians who didn't speak a word. One of them was a really extraordinary women. She had been a successful business women in eastern Ukraine and had lost her home, business and everything when the Russians came. She arrived with no English but spend six hours a day online learning, while her kid was a school using free resources she found herself. She treated it as her job. She then got a job in a chicken factory (which most of the other Ukrainians refused to do as it's a horrible job). A year and a half down the line, she speaks good enough English to do an office job in an estate agents. Now I know not everyone has the determination or character of this women (I know I wouldn't) but this women has done brilliantly and I'm full of admiration for her.

No translators should be provided, the parents should pay if they want one.

Same with the NHS, its a health service not a translation service.

It doesn't matter why not. Just as it doesn't matter why some parents don't read with their kids every night and some send them into school with last night's McDonalds. The school's responsibility is to the child and the parents' responsibility is none of their business until it reaches proportions of illegal neglect.

(as it happens I think withdrawing provision to make an ideological point is cruel and idiotic by the head anyway, but that is not my point here).

The problem is within certain cultures. I helped in a conversation class for woman, and we were often told by women from that culture that many of their friends would not be allowed to attend by their husbands.
One woman I know, a trained teacher in her country of origin, had been married off to an old widower in the UK. The conversation class was literally the only activity that she was allowed to participate in.
I find it heartbreaking but nothing is going to change for these women, living, as they are, in a misogynistic community. The hope lies in their daughters (as long as they are not married off abroad.

My grandad moved here via the Netherlands and France after having been brought up in Germany as a child. His father was dual national English French and his mother was German. They all spoke English at home as well as French and German.

When my grandad moved here I’m sure his English wasn’t perfect but it improved and he got jobs here and married. After a divorce he brought his DM over from Germany to help bring up his DD (my mum). Her English wasn’t her mother tongue but she knew enough to get by, read and write and have conversations, she was approx 60 when she arrived.

If they can do it, others can. And yes they didn’t have cultural issues but the older DM was too old to work (had been a SAHM/W), no social security and grandad’s other brother who moved here, and was a successful businessman, provided money to help with her care.

Read my posts! Cultural norms can be challenged and changed but it takes time and patience with the community. Shouldn’t be left to the daughters to change it.

So parents can do what the fuck they like and schools are just meant to pick up the pieces and take responsibility but nobody is allowed to question why or expect the parents to take responsibility? It is blatantly unfair to expect the school to take on infinite responsibility that the parents don't whilst at the same time saying we can't question why these parents aren't taking on the responsibility of their childs needs.

I don't even disagree that withdrawing some of the provision is idiotic, especially stuff like letters where they're a templated resource that has already been created and is just sent out en mass anyway, but I do think the school should have the right to put limits on the (expensive) resources they currently provide by default - they'll give parents a year of state funded translations when necessary while they get settled and find a support network but after that first year then the onus is on the parents to fund or provide the translator themselves. Why is that a bad thing? The school provides for the immediate need but long term responsibility for the parents understanding is put on them in the form of a set boundary of no more school funded translations in meetings after the first year.

So it's better to let someone walk round the streets potentially infecting people with communicable diseases rather than spend money on making sure they have access to healthcare they can understand. Sounds foolproof.

A lot of migrants if arriving legally use what English or learn what they can to pass immigration tests and then return to their communities and generally not always don’t learn much English. Either families support them or they claim benefits if they’re entitled to them.

That is stupid and dangerous. I have worked in the NHS for 30 years. Without interpreters, we would not be able to prescribe or treat people properly, consent them to procedures or do any preventative health work at all.

And there would be deaths and a greater burden on the health service.

Who says nobody can talk about it? It is not the school's job to police it. It is the schools job to make sure a student's parents understand what is happening at school.

There's a different conversation about what immigrants should and shouldn't do but currently there is no law about learning the language and if there was it would have to come with national provision of lessons and encouragement to take them up. I don't think withdrawal of provision works to make people learn a language, I think it just makes people sink. But I'm sure most on this thread disagree with me.

No wonder schools are short of money if this kind of thing is expected!

If you've been here for several years you should have made the effort to learn the language. What an unbelievable cheek to think you can get away with that level of entitlement and lack of commitment to your new country - and that taxpayers will just keep stumping up!

For very new settlers, fair enough.

I am a foreigner in a different country. I take a fluent friend with me for important meetings, schools , healthcare, tax office etc. When accuracy of understanding is important Schools are super stretched financially. It's on the parents to facilitate this not the school

Read my posts! Cultural norms can be challenged and changed but it takes time and patience with the community. Shouldn’t be left to the daughters to change it.
I'm not leaving it to the daughters to change it. It's a fact that they will speak English at school and obtain freedom from that. Unless they are married out of the country.
Some of their mothers will never have freedom, because their husbands won't allow them to learn English.
Part of challenging this is not to provide translators. I can see why you disagree with me, but I don't believe there is any hope for women who have been here for years and know no English.

*Sausagenbacon

Is it a uk thing to view non-English speakers as unfortunates who can't be expected to make the effort (or have the intelligence) to learn English? And we're talking about people who have been here for over a year*

I think it is a worldwide thing. If you can’t communicate even on a basic level in the language of the country you have lived in for more than a year I think most people would think the same

Even on holiday you pick up the odd word so by the end of a couple of weeks you can ask for food and drink and work out a few signs.

I think the situation with that Polish kid being excluded is a tricky one.
Even though I generally agree with the head teacher’s approach, I do think that an interpreter could/ should have been engaged here, just because of how serious the situation is.
As for asking Polish speaking staff to help out - there was a thread on here couple of weeks ago where the OP was trying to help a new employee from outside the UK settle in and was wondering if a colleague from the same background as the new hire could help out.
Most posters were telling her either not to ask at all as it wasn’t the colleague’s job, or ask but definitely not assume the colleague would be willing or able to help.
I think the same applies here - just because some of the staff speak Polish doesn’t mean they can be/ wish to be interpreters in an exclusion meeting.

The op mentioned that a meeting was held (in English) to exclude a child which the Polish speaking mother did not understand. The head refused to allow any staff member in to translate even though there were staff who could have done so

So again, what was to stop the parent making their own arrangements instead of assuming the school would do it all? And as a PP just said, isn't the UK supposed to be more attractive to immigrants precisely because they can already speak some English?

I have to smile about asking other staff if they'd help with translation though, especially remembering a recent thread where there were howls of indignation at the very idea, with "Why should they be expected to?" flung around

Funny how things morph from one thread to another ...

I think the situation with that Polish kid being excluded is a tricky one.
Even though I generally agree with the head teacher’s approach, I do think that an interpreter could/ should have been engaged here, just because of how serious the situation is.
As for asking Polish speaking staff to help out - there was a thread on here couple of weeks ago where the OP was trying to help a new employee from outside the UK settle in and was wondering if a colleague from the same background as the new hire could help out.
Most posters were telling her either not to ask at all as it wasn’t the colleague’s job, or ask but definitely not assume the colleague would be willing or able to help.
I think the same applies here - just because some of the staff speak Polish doesn’t mean they can be/ wish to be interpreters in an exclusion meeting.

I always wonder what other countries provide this type of thing in their schools.
If I moved to Spain would a Spanish school provide a translator
If I go to Italy would I get notes from
the school in English. Would French schools provide me FOC French lessons