School refusing to provide translator

[CapturedLeprechaun]

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

If you go by that logic then you might also ask why we should give extra resources to SEN children or those with disabilities as these only benefit them.
Britain has a colonial past and providing translation services to migrants from ex colonies is one way of actually making things right.

Slight derail but why is it £120-£150 ph for translation? Someone is making a lot of money out of this. It can’t be both so easy that a 7 year old can translate for his parents, and so specialised you need to pay more than a surgeon.

that's a really good question isn't it. because the actual translators don't get paid that much

These are usually certified interpreters/translaters. You can't just get for example court documents translated by anyone.
There are certifications for NHS, Police etc. These are qualified people. Plus you can have last minute call out charges and much will most lilrly go to their agency.

This is a lovely concept and I too am all for multiculturalism. But in every day terms I think it'd be sensible to agree on integrating with a common tongue, which should be English if in the UK.

Being able to speak English will remove barriers, open doors, give access to jobs, support if needed.

I understand that cultural gender expectations often stand in the way of women integrating as @GonnaGetGoingReturns also pointed out.

Sometimes it might be a problem for these mums to learn the language because they might be illiterate, or they're expected to stay home.

Not supporting or encouraging these women to learn the official language doesn't serve them at all because they will be forever dependent on their spouses / the males in their families. That's why I said they're going to need way more specialised support to get used to a more emancipated life that can be possible for them in the UK.

The pupil premium is for disadvantaged students. Which isnt necessarily the ones with non english speaking parents.
Looking at our school pp is £75k and none for translation.

So the op school ks further disadvantaging thge pupils there by spending it on that. When it doesnt benefit the students learning. Ours is spent on phonics and maths intervention.
they only got £5k for covid!

However i would say our school relies heavily on parents reading with dc at home. So if the parents were unable tp dp this that wpuld be a big issue. (In fact the efl kids actually do very well academically). But 1 family - with english mum arrived fr om abroad with a child into y6 ability and the child was so far behind they didnt sit SATs. And has gone up to y7 very far behind. Presumably the kid got some intervention but in general lessons they were on an app. So moving later on can cause isues.

kids will do better where the parent has attempted to learn english. translation of letters is much less helpful to the child, potentially detrimental as making parents dependent. Including on their children.

its not like scouts or swimming lessons letters etc are translated.

@Tartareistasty I understand that, it just seems excessive for the complexity required here. I’m not one for ‘race to the bottom’, just remarking that someone is on a roll. The agency owners.

They always are.
It might be a contract, you know how it is. 4 competitors, 5th last minute mate entry with inflated prices wins.
Tbf if they are doing unusual language, then that might bring extra, but yeah.

It's like so many contracted out/privatised public services - there's always profit for the agency/shareholders to be factored in

See also water, railways, utilities

The schools budget shouldn't be used for this. The parents are welcome to bring a translator (professional or otherwise) with them. I think that's fine as a solution.

which is the ACTUAL issue isn't it. And yet again has everyone turning on each other and blaming 'forriners' for wasting public funds. it's so frustrating and sad

Not supporting or encouraging these women to learn the official language doesn't serve them at all because they will be forever dependent on their spouses / the males in their families

Exactly - and worse still it encourages a dreadful model for the children if they're facilitated in believing this is a lifestyle to aim for in the UK

Nobody pretends these issues are straightforward, but enabling more dependency and lack of autonomy hardly seems the answer, no matter how appealing it is to simply kick the can down the road

@Gothambutnotahamster but they/we/Brits are given allowances and favours- that's my point. We accept it but draw some arbitrary line with reciprocating

@GingerTulip than you for saying this. I made this point about brits I worked with living in SE Asia. Your experience of not speaking a local language despite living abroad for years is similar to most of my ex colleagues.
I moved younger so was more enthusiastic to learn (and had more time plus was social etc) so I did but many didn't after years. Despite their kids having conversational knowledge of at least one local language

There is a part of me that thinks for sure they should learn English after being here 5+ years. People will never integrate without the language.

We have a holiday home in a European country, where my partner is fluent and I can do enough in the language to exist day to day, including dealing with their health service for basic ailments. I'd not even think of opening in a cafe in English there, even though some of the local shopkeepers know we are English and want to improve their English and so we often end up in English too. Because of that I do get that it can sometimes be harder to pick up the second language if the other side always resorts your first for ease/speed (the equivalent of getting a translator in, it's just that many Europeans speak excellent English). I learnt much more interacting in places that weren't the airport or the tourist office when I first visited as they would default to English most quickly so I didn't really have a chance to work through conversations. Taking the opportunity a bit more improved my language skills no end. It's definitely use it or lose it. Even my fluent DP is much quicker on techncial conversations having been there 3 or 4 days rather than on arrival.

Back to the school... maybe for the odd one who's abusive husband wont let them learn then that will be a minority and the costs won't be so much as a reasonable adjustment, but I do think the default should be to do it in the main language of the county we are in, so in this case it should be in English and people will need to motivate themselves to learn.

Britain has a colonial past and providing translation services to migrants from ex colonies is one way of actually making things right.

Yes, it's about time to acknowledge the atrocities in Britain's past, take responsibility and make amends.

Providing translation services to migrants from ex colonies doesn't make this good IMO. It enables families to continue living in a way where women aren't fully equal. Don't you think there's more helpful ways to make amends @ichundich?

You can definitely help your child and support their learning without speaking the language of instruction. You do so by providing time, space and resources for them to do it, for a start. You can also ask them about their work, listen to their reply (in English), explain the concepts to them (in English) for them to translate back and complete their work in Welsh.

It sounds a bit laborious, but in my experience it can sometimes work better than if the work was all in English, as the child has to engage with the work to explain it to you, and understand what you say to put it into their own words. It avoids the issue of parents just doing the work, which is useless for the child's learning.

OP already quoted the number of FSM

seems fair to me - learn the language of the country you live in.

Ultimately, the children and their education will suffer for their parent’s language skills. The school needs to make an effort to mitigate that impact, within the budget they have. a
@rrrrrreatt why not the parents make an effort? Why are schools and teachers being derided and being called names and blamed for the parents not doing anything?

how do you know the kids with ESOL parents are the same as the ones on FSMs?. Mine had FSM for a while, I am British and English is my mother tongue

I can see why they would need to do it due to costs etc, but I do agree it’s not very inclusive for those who don’t speak English. My job involves working with schools and families in central London where British kids are the minority in the schools. The parents don’t always learn English because they don’t need to in their community because mostly where they’d spend time everyone would speak their language, e.g Arabic. A lot of women in these families aren’t allowed to learn English even if they want to as the culture is that they stay home and look after the children and the home, so often the husbands don’t allow them to go off to English lessons if even they’re free.

I am concerned how casually people say ‘women in some cultures aren’t allowed to learn English’

So it’s imperative to the child that the parents understand what’s happening and can communicate with the school. It’s detrimental to the child of the parent can communicate.

You know women, living in the UK, are routinely stopped from learning how to communicate meaning their children are very disadvantaged

Not being able to communicate makes women far more vulnerable

Those families are known to the schools and other professionals involved

and the solution is that the school should pay for a translator?

Rather than looking at why there’s a large amount of men abusing their wives and disadvantaging their children, in these communities?

This keeps being mentioned as one of the biggest reasons to keep the translators. So I assume it’s happening a lot in non English communities? Why isn’t that being tackled?

And how do you propose this is tackled?

@CapturedLeprechaun There was an exclusion meeting held for a child who was being excluded. Mum was Polish, we have plenty of polish speaking support staff at the school who could have translated, I think it's vital that a parent understands the reason their child has been excluded from a school and has a chance to ask questions etc. The head refused to use staff or pay for translating services for the meeting, mum didn't bring a translator, I don't think she had a clue what was happening.

So what had the mother herself done to prepare for the meeting? Downloaded a translation app, asked for support from the community?
Were the school staff willing to do this/able to re work load, or are you volunteering their services?

Yes there are colleges and lycées with international sections all over France with teaching paetly in English or other languages. Maonly in big cities for obvious reasons but not always. There are also perapatetic teachers and special classes for students who arrive speaking no French. And as I say, my school's PTA communicates with parents in Frrnch and English, though the school comms are all French.