School refusing to provide translator

[CapturedLeprechaun]

I'm on the Governing body for a school with a really high proportion of kids with English as a second language. It's over 80% of their pupils. Many of the parents speak little or no English at all. There are some families who have been here 5+ years where one or both parents speak no English at all still, and even a "your child has no PE kit, they need to wear their PE kit on Mondays and Wednesdays" wouldn't be understood.

The school always use translators for meetings with parents - either a staff member who speaks that language who is available, or else they have a telephone translator service that they pay for, so the phone is on loudspeaker and a translator translates the conversation.

This is done for all parents evenings/ attendance meetings/ SENCO meetings etc for parents who don't speak or understand English.

Important letters like school trips/consent forms are provided translated in the three most common languages spoken.

The school offers English classes to parents, one held in the school one morning a week in the hall, one held in the evening each week.

School has now said translators will only be provided to parents whose children have been at the school for less than a year. If your child has been at the school for more than a year and you are unable to understand English, no translator will be provided, due to staff shortages and costs, and you have to bring a friend/family member who can translate. Letters will only be provided in English, and parents can use the translate feature on google if they need to.

On the face of this, does this seem a reasonable decision? The head has announced this and I don't know why it doesn't sit right with me, and I can't really articulate why. It has a lot of support from the English speaking parents, but it feels... divisive, I guess? And most likely children who will suffer. Currently trying to weigh up whether this is something I should raise, or accept this is a reasonable step for the school to take.

There are community groups that help them fill out the benefits forms. When it comes to benefits, they are motivated enough to fill in the forms in English.

My experience of working in healthcare in ?the same area of London was similar

Culturally the husband was the spokesperson for the family and his wife was seen as having no need to communicate outside of the family or attend services without a male relative. Many women had no English despite living in the UK for more than 20 years

So not laziness or avoiding responsibilies as parents at all but very difficult to address

A male relative was virtually always the translator and translators provided by NHS were declined because of the confidentiality of health/family information

Signage was added and letters were sent in the dominant additional language but this proved counter-productive because of low literacy rates and confounded the ability of young family members to translate written English for their parents

Honestly the majority of responses to this thread are appalling.

Even when pulled up on the fact that the majority of British immigrants abroad don't speak and write in local languages the overwhelming response is "well no need as English is also spoken". With no regard for the terrible colonial legacy that has brought this about.

Furthermore, the focus is on the parents and using disparaging language such as lazy etc (though how people potentially working multiple low wage jobs in potentially insecure housing can be considered lazy I'll never understand) why is nobody focusing on the negative impact this will have on the children of parents who can't interact with the school in a meaningful way.

And for those with absolutely no empathy for other children hopefully you are selfish enough to recognise that this will likely have a negative impact on the kids with parents with English as a 1st language. Your kids will be negatively impacted because the classroom won't progress as fast when they are trying single-handedly to support every child to reach a minimum standard and it will be the schools fault because they haven't brought the parents alongside to help eg - without ESOL lessons and translators the child of the non English speaking parent will likely be pulled out of school regularly to support parents at gp visits or anything that requires translating services.
The child effectively becomes a carer and stats show the negative impact being a child carer have not only on the individual child but society. Let's kids be kids and support parents to allow their children be children.

excellent post

The costs must be huge!.
How many support staff extra have they had to provide this. Our primary has 2. For 400 kids.
I dont think this is what the fsm etc funding should be used for.
Feel sorry for the admin having to attach loads of versions of the letters.

Benefits chat is redundant in many cases considering no recourse to public funds...

I know this is mainly about school and therefore fairly young adults but one thing for healthcare is that if you develop dementia you usually lose your languages in the opposite order to the way you acquired them, so someone fluent in 5 languages can become monolingual and if they acquired English as an adult, which is common with immigrants and your other 4 languages as a child you will lose your English first.

I get why this doesn't sound like a priority given current budget constraints but

1: as others have pointed out, the sorts of languages involved are hugely under-represented in the databases used by Google Translate etc so the results will be much shonkier than you'd get for major Western European languages into English

2: there are major systemic barriers to second language literacy in immigrant communities, it's not just a matter of laziness

3: using children as go-betweens is really, really not best practice: think about asking a child to explain to their parent that they've been suspended for drinking or something, for instance: Community volunteers is better but there are still major concerns over e:g reliability, accuracy and confidentiality:

4: other countries do provide info in English for expat English speakers: the PTA at my school in France does

Even when pulled up on the fact that the majority of British immigrants abroad don't speak and write in local languages the overwhelming response is "well no need as English is also spoken". With no regard for the terrible colonial legacy that has brought this about.

I'm equally critical of anyone who immigrates and doesn't learn the local language.

Me too!

@CapturedLeprechaun what about letters regarding Diwali and Eid celebrations for example. does he not want these sent out in Urdu/Arabic etc??

you make a really good point about Pupil Premium also

this Head needs to get his ass to some rural back water somewhere. he does not have the best interests of the school students, at heart. urgh!

@SomeCatFromJapan @Gothambutnotahamster you might be cynical but the majority of British immigrants don't learn local languages. Most don't actually socially interact with locals beyond the ones they are exposed to at work.

When I lived in Asia most of my British colleagues were surprised that I socialised (including inviting to events in my home) with locals and ate at local food vendors regularly because even those who'd lived in Singapore for 10yrs + didn't.

what do you think Pupil Premium should be used for @AnySoln ?

It doesn't matter if some letters exist. It would be extremely discriminatory if the school was sending letters in one language (that they have), but not in another language (that they haven't got).

How would that work? The school prides itself in helping with Portuguese and Spanish, but not with German? That can't happen in a state school.

YABU. We speak English in England.

Money is a HUGE motivator.
This isn't a dig at anyone, it's just a fact. Cold hard cash has been shown to influence everything from stopping smoking, breast feeding rates to how many children people choose to have. I wonder if people were actually paid to learn English more people would learn. I bet the wife, not allowed out of the house would suddenly be allowed by her husband to go if she was paid to attend classes/pass exams (and the money immediately taken off her).

It depends really and I do think it’s a cultural issue at some levels.

If you see my PP though my DB made a short film about Walthamstow (approx 8-10 years ago) which focussed on Pakistani/Indian immigrant workers (craft), women wanting to learn English etc. Most of them attended some sort of craft or social integration group with English involved from what I recall and also because they wanted to do something outside the home.

They wanted to be able to get jobs outside the hind and to be able to communicate in English but a lot of the time as the husband is the breadwinner and head of the household he has the final say. Yes of course these women have families and caring commitments but they made the effort to come to these community events/classes. So more integration needs to happen within the community so families understand the need to integrate, socialise, possibly get jobs or study.

Most younger women from this culture buck the trend completely and are fluent in English (as partly their mother tongue as it’s taught in school) and get jobs.

yes of course. keeping a roof over your head and being able to feed your kids is very motivating 🤷🏼‍♀️

While I agree that funding must be tight and translation services cannot realistically be offered forever, I disagree with all the comments suggesting that English people abroad wouldn't expect to have letters translated etc.

How many Brit expats learn the language of the country they live in? Many, sure, just as many immigrants to the UK do. But many do not. I have friends who lived in Spain for over 20 years and raised their children there, and they can barely string a sentence together in Spanish. This is not unusual in their area. Their children went to local schools and are fully bilingual. Their daughter often ended up translating for expat friends dealing with anything official, as so few of then could handle administrative tasks themselves.

I'm an expat in SE Asia and my knowledge of the local language is embarrassingly weak even after 5 years. It's not a problem for me (and many expats here and elsewhere) because my children attend international school so communication is always in both English and the local language (and sometimes several other languages). I know this isn't relevant to the case in question, with a regular local school, and presumably with most families intending to settle in the UK for good.

But please, let's stop assuming Brits abroad learn the language and don't expect any allowances or favours. I also totally agree with a previous poster who explained the obstacles many immigrant women face to learning English.

I'm amazed the school has been able to fund this for so long.

Better to use instant voice translation on phones and tablets, even if the odd word is misconstrued. At least that way the parents can also converse back to staff.

I once had a child from Poland introduced to my form class with 10 minutes warning. He could only say his name and Hello in English. When I enquired about how to manage the language barrier I was told to learn basic Polish on my own time and at my own expense. 'Get on with it' is the message teachers get, because there is no money.

Im not disagreeing with you, but I would also think they're wrong to do that & wouldn't expect them to be catered to in English in those countries at all.

There are schools all over the world that teach in English: In France there are state-run high schools all over the country with English sections (and German, CHinese, Arabic etc) for foreign mother tongue students:

Well, if they can't speak English and work, the government must be doing that part for them.....

YABU 100%

Schools have such limited resources as it is and the school are already providing far more than they need to.

After one year a parent should be able to speak reasonable English. Especially as the school provides lessons.

In comparison my best mate moved to France. She had to pay for a translator herself for things like parents evening. After 1 year her daughter spoke amazing French and her French improved massively.

The kids in the school will learn English quickly. I've taught many kids speaking no English and by the end of the school year they have their hands up answering questions.

So am I right in thinking you're saying there are State run high schools here in France with English teaching sections for the English Kids? How many?

I haven't seen it myself, but we're pretty rural and not in an expat bubble.