Parents of SEN kids,do people avoid you too?

[Jennybeans401]

I have three dcs and all of them have SEN. Over the years I noticed some friends and (not all) family avoid me and our family due to this. All my dcs are quiet, kind and polite dcs.

It's almost like people think they might "catch" autism! I see how despite Inclusion a lot of people still ostracise many who are autistic or have a disability.

Have you experienced this?

Play therapy isn’t routinely offered or available in our area and I don’t think would be any sort of “cure” for the child

Absolutely this. And the idea of “treatment” or “cure” is grossly offensive to most autistic people.

Play therapy is also intended to support the autistic child to get the most out of play, not to “sanitize” the child so she becomes socially acceptable. Many of the “violent” behaviours we see in (say) autistic 5, 6 and 7 year olds are the same as those we see in NT 2, 3 and 4 year olds, when they are expected. For example, parallel play, difficulty sharing, pushing or shoving, overwhelm. But guess what - the ND kids got a neurodevelopmental disability, so they’re a bit behind. NOT inherently terrible children OR badly parented.

Please give it a try @Mojodojocasahaus, especially if your DS has been asking for the play date. Ask your DS what he enjoys doing with his friend, to get an initial idea of activities, and then check with the mum what she thinks her son would cope with. She may well want to stay for a cup of tea or something, to check he’s settling ok.

@Ohthatsabitshit we're not all in your area. I've known this family for years and we were close but things have become more difficult recently. I hasten to add that DC1 has at least 2 more friends with ND, it's all out in the open and us and other parents know what we can do in order to be supportive. There are no issues whatsoever with play dates, get togethers, birthday parties etc.

@MollyRover its a bit like saying you know three babies and two of them always sleep through….it’s not really possible to compare one nd person with another in any meaningful way. You sound weirdly determined that you could do better, actually that everyone else you know is doing better. Why don’t the play dates go swimmingly at your house then? If it’s so fucking easy what have you done to fix it, beyond blaming the parents?

I think for a lot of these parents that avoid SEN parents it's purely based on the behaviour of the SEN child. It's a shit thing to say (and I know I get piled on) but when my daughter came home from school after being physically assauted again by the same child, quite frankly, I really didn't give a shit about his SEN. When my child's class was evacuated to the hall for the third time in a month because a child with SEN was having a meltdown throwing chairs at everyone and my child had recieved one to the head. Again, I really didn't give a shit about his SEN.

If parents are hearing this from their children they do not have a complete picture of the of the situation. But they do have the right to not want to their child to get involved with children who have SEN that can present, at times, as violent.

Denial about ND is the right way to go about things? How do you suggest I handle it? Do you think it's justified that the child is not receiving any help or reasonable adjustment because the parents are embarrassed?

There's a gap somewhere, you can either attempt to bridge it by being open and informative or you can stay on your high horse. If my DCs were facing similar difficulties I would engage with professionals and not just ignore it. This is not my DC so really there isn't anything I can do about it, and my responsibility is to my own children's safety. I acknowledge that it must be lonely and difficult for them but that is largely their own doing.

The trouble with that line of argument, @ForTheLoveOfSleep, is that it's the same sort of argument as saying "I noticed that a Black British man was convicted of murder in our city over the summer and so I don't want my family to be involved with any Black British males because some of them have been convicted of murder." Now clearly, that's a dreadful, appallingly racist decision that also ignores and minimises the fact that people who are not Black British or male have also been convicted of murder. It's so appalling that I half expect my post to be deleted if a reader doesn't understand that I'm attempting to summarise an argument I disagree with, for illustrative purposes.

The argument about children presenting violently also frequently fudges a comparison between violent intent and premeditation; and the fight-or-flight, lack of self-awareness and self-control that is developmentally appropriate in toddlers and preschoolers and can also present in older children with developmental delays.

It's weak thinking, discriminatory, and morally inept, to claim that because some children with SEND are violent, all disabled children are a risk and should be avoided.

It's pretty appalling for your daughter to be assaulted twice and hit with a chair and for the teaching staff not to be more on top of that situation. But aside from your daughter, it's also appalling because of the dreadful state the 'violent' child was goaded into. Can you bear with me enough to imagine a situation that was so intolerable that it left you wanting to scream and throw things? What would that take? A feeling that no one was listening to you or understanding you? If you had some urgent need you weren't allowed to take care of? If you were in pain and not allowed to move from the source of the pain? How would you deal with that intolerable situation? By removing yourself? By arguing your case? What if you were prevented? Can you imagine yourself into a bit of empathy or understanding for the 'violent' child in those circumstances?

No it’s not largely their own doing, it’s largely that they have children facing challenges yours don’t face. If their children weren’t there wouldn’t be an issue.

There are LOTS of reasons nd children’s and nd adults needs aren’t met. Very very few of those are because the people caring for them however ineptly are “in denial”. They may have different ideas to you about how things are best handled but since you aren’t the one dealing you probably have a pinhole idea of what the drivers are for their behaviour.

As for what support is available in each area of the country, I’ve been posting on MN for a couple of decades predominantly on the SN boards so I have a broad idea of the challenges in securing support and therapy and a reasonably educated view on what does and doesn’t help. While obviously I find your take on things offensive and ill thought, and genuinely think it’s attitudes like this that make it so hard especially when your children are younger, I would like to try and help you reframe things. If this child is nd no amount of therapy or support is going to make them “pass” for nt in any real way. It is always going to be the case that your children will have to accommodate them and you are going to have to reach over that gap to support. Just as it is always going to be the case that this family and their child will be doing that in every single part of their lives. You can opt out and find easier playmates, or you can do the work that matches the work they are doing and engage with people who don’t have your easy social and life experience. What I wouldn’t do is stay and want them to work even harder so you don’t have to and then paint them as the feckless disability denying horrors.

I’m sorry to be so blunt. I find the mother blaming so unpleasant. Something really really hard is happening in your friends family. It’s their children who are in trouble. Could you not just step up and be there? Couldn’t you helicopter if the kids need more supervision and help?

I remember long before I knew anything about disability or inclusion asking dds little friend from nursery to her birthday party. The child was a little bit older and only semi verbal. The next day her mum gave me a hug and said they’d NEVER been invited to a play date or a party or anywhere. I went away totally baffled and have never forgotten it. It made no difference to us at all.

@AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman if someone is violent towards your child then you just want to remove them from that situation, it doesn't matter to you whether intent exists. Why would anyone allow their child to be injured so that the person injuring them or their parents won't have hurt feelings? Do you think that's wrong? Also nobody has said that all ND children are violent. The vast vast majority are not.

@MollyRover if there is such good understanding that the vast majority of ND children are not violent, why does violence keep being held up as the excuse for exclusion and discrimination? Why does @ForTheLoveOfSleep feel the need to come and tell the parents on this thread, who have not been describing violent behaviour for the most part, that they are only being ignored because of violent behaviour?

Sure, yes, remove your child from the situation where they might get hurt. Do your utmost to prevent it. But actually intent does matter. For instance, if you were at toddler group and a three year old pushed your three year old because they understood what your child saw as 'sharing' to be 'theft' - then yes you separate the kids, talk about playing nicely etc - but do you then shun and ignore that parent forever more? No because three year olds struggle to share and can get handsy. You might even offer reassurance - 'My kid did the same thing to Joey last week; they'll learn.'

The six year old who is developmentally at the same stage re play and sharing as the three year olds, is not more culpable or more deserving of shunning than the three year olds.

Yes and no.

@Ohthatsabitshit no I couldn't, because I am not able or willing to physically restrain their child (who is as strong as I am) while also removing my toddler from their path. I will not be there for them, because they are not up front with me about their unrealistic expectations of their child's abilities in different situations. Who is blaming the mother? Certainly not me, both parents are equally responsible.

Bear in mind this is one family of a ND child that I know. The only child that is physically threatening towards mine and other's DCs. There are lots of children at school with various needs and neurodiversities and this is the only instance in which I've seen issues of this kind. Obviously there is a spectrum, but the one glaring difference I see is that in this case, there is no acknowledgement of the nd whatsoever, in fact there is outright denial.

Yes. Even within our own family. It's really difficult. DS has behavioural problems, so it's understandable in some ways. But it can be hurtful.

@AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman I can't speak for anyone else but in my situation there's no conversation about it. No advice on how we can all manage the neurodiversity better, be aware of boundaries etc. Just brush it under the carpet and blame someone else. My children are my priority, everyone's own children are their priority. Add to that the child is the child of my (former) friends, not actually a friend of theirs so I'm not going to specifically arrange a playdate when I barely have enough time to arrange one with their friends as it is.

@AmericasfavoritefightingFrenchman Nowhere I have said the SEN child is to blame. Absolutely nowhere. I have stated my own experience which actually goes much deeper in terms of the damage inflicted on my daughter by a child with violent SEN behaviours. To which I have to disagree, from the parent of the hurt child, intent DOESN'T matter when it is happening repeatedly.

My point, which you missed entirely, is that parents are hearing about these behaviours (not just violent ones) second hand in most cases from their children. So are just hearing tidbits of the things that most effect their own child that day. I am not saying this is an excuse for parents to avoid SEN parents but it is a small explanation to possibly why some do.

Thank god it's not just me. My entire family avoids us and I will never forgive or forget watching him have to deal with those cunt parents who invited every kid except him to the many birthday parties they had, every time he would spiral into self loathing and utter desolation, it damn near broke me. Every fucking time, then there were the two attempts I made at inviting kids to his birthday, no response from anyone. I don't think his self esteem will ever recover from how unwanted he felt by his peers at mainstream.
He's at a special school now but it's a distance and he goes in by taxi so I haven't been able to meet any other mums yet. But he will transfer to a special 'big school' in a year so fingers crossed he'll eventually get a party and I'll eventually get to talk to someone who doesn't sneer at me as if I'm scum because my kid is a screamer.

No, this hasn’t happened to me. Dd11 has asd. Her social communication is quite poor so I think most people who know her would pick up on it. She doesn’t have as many friends as she’d like but I can see why as she’s a bit left behind by her peers as she lacks maturity and struggles to know what to talk about
. I haven’t seen any signs of her being treated unfairly. I am open with other parents when it’s useful for them to know and they’ve always been supportive. Maybe it helps that there are many ND kids around and within our community people are pretty aware of it. It’s certainly not taboo to talk about.

dd2 is 10, NT and has lots of friends, and same goes for me, so I think we’re quite a sociable family. Apart from Dh who is more introvert - but he Makes a big effort for the kids.

So basically @MollyRover you do avoid your friends because of their dcs additional needs. The thread is about people who are shunned by their friends and family and if others have experienced that. Are you looking for understanding from the victims of that behaviour? Do you want reassurance that you are doing the right thing? How appropriate is that and why are you seeking that here?

Both my DC have (very) complex needs. As a professional in this area I understand all about the drive for inclusion in mainstream schools but increasingly I don't think children with complex needs in mainstream schools is good for anyone: not the teachers, not the child themselves, not the other children and not the families. In my personal and professional experience it just doesn't work, the resources are not available. That's why there is all this talk on this thread about violence - mainstream classrooms can be absolute torture for ND children, who then meltdown, the staff can't cope properly with a meltdown, the other kids are frightened and tell their parents, and the parents increasingly distance themselves from the children with SEN (and their parents). Then the cycle just repeats. Sad state of affairs and could possibly look a lot different if mainstream schools were properly equipped. Until then, I'd never put my children in a mainstream school.

@Ohthatsabitshit they recently lashed out at us when we tried to broach the subject with them. We were willing to learn about the nd and support them but they have closed the door on all of that. I'm not willing for my children to be injured by their child so we won't be seeing them anymore.

I'm giving my experience which is that the more open and honest all parents are with eachother then the lower the likelihood of them being avoided like this. Reading and communicating on a thread like this helps me and I'm sure others understand another parents view. You're obviously not open to any ideas based on your experience and that's fine.

@NDfamily I agree, my son was at 3 mainstream schools, the last (a rarity in it's SN provision) he attended for a year. They ran a very small 'nurture' group and he was identified in the first week as being in need. The nurture group changed our lives. He stopped bedwetting, headbanging, 'lost' some of his OCD behaviours and began to be able to manage himself better.
This was primarily due to the small size of the nurture group, he wasn't being overwhelmed and reacting, so the other kids weren't frightened of him and he was able to learn how to interact with them. The school had a play therapist(?) who taught him how to play 'with' other children, it was the first time in his life he felt he belonged at school.
He made so much progress academically because they were able to focus just on him, which also meant when the ASD/CAMHS assessments began I was able to bring in very detailed school reports which really seemed to speed the whole process up.
This school was in Tunbridge Wells, I assume they had better funding systems in place.

When I saw the difference in him in a smaller class setting, I was so angry that he'd been allowed to struggle in 'normal' mainstream settings for so long, that poor boy was utterly miserable and I kept getting told some kids just struggle at school and he wasn't helping himself by lashing out.
It isn't fair that there's such a difference according to postcodes.

@NDfamily @lilmishap that's really interesting. @lilmishap especially sounds like a great outcome for your child. I hear a lot of parents want to avoid special schools like the plague but I met a parent of an nd child from DC1s preschool years recently (dc was there too) who is thriving at a special school, the parent was really just delighted at how well they were doing and how far they'd come.

It’s overwhelmingly lonely. It suffocates me how lonely I am. Every day, I wake up and think to myself that “I’m one day closer to death.” My children need me so I stick around but I’ve never felt loneliness like it.

@MollyRover I’ve said on repeat that I believe in your situation it’s a good thing you have severed the friendship. You obviously were finding it hard to adequately supervise your child in the situation and are quite negative about their choices.

I don’t think any parent needs to disclose any details of their child’s diagnosis to buy compassion. If you can only help if they do then you’re probably not best placed to be in this family’s life

100% . I had an old friend contact me having us not spoken for a few years. There was back and forth catching-up chat.

We were discussing a subject where it was relevant to mention DC is autistic, and even as I was writing it I knew what would happen. Low and behold I never heard from them again.