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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Risk your life, live with taking a life but we will charge you with murder

135 replies

sleepyscientist · 24/09/2023 09:43

Anyone else things police officers should have indemnity from prosecution whilst on duty. This poor officer followed a suspect that was believed to be armed, stepped out of his vehicle and into the line of fire to protect us.

Now because it turns out he was unarmed he's not only up on a disciplinary but facing a murder charge. Rightly other officers are stepping back so now our armed capacity is falling......terror attack risk right there! Hopefully any jury finds him not guilty!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12552965/Met-police-protest-Chris-Kaba-murder-charge.html

OP posts:
MrsTerryPratchett · 24/09/2023 22:46

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/09/2023 22:25

They don't want to leave. They don't feel safe doing their job.

Do you want to feel safe doing your job?

I don't feel safe doing my job. I work in housing. Someone in my team was threatened on Friday. I frequently attend with police, who stand behind me when I'm doing it. You'd be amazed at the scary people I meet on the regular.

I don't envy the police but social workers, nurses, traffic wardens, pub staff, all deal with the same stuff without the same backup. Care workers have jobs about as dangerous as police officers and get about half the pay.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/09/2023 22:47

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/09/2023 22:46

I don't feel safe doing my job. I work in housing. Someone in my team was threatened on Friday. I frequently attend with police, who stand behind me when I'm doing it. You'd be amazed at the scary people I meet on the regular.

I don't envy the police but social workers, nurses, traffic wardens, pub staff, all deal with the same stuff without the same backup. Care workers have jobs about as dangerous as police officers and get about half the pay.

No, I would most definitely not be surprised at anything.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/09/2023 22:49

I don't feel safe doing my job. I work in housing. Someone in my team was threatened on Friday. I frequently attend with police, who stand behind me when I'm doing it. You'd be amazed at the scary people I meet on the regular.

Would you feel safer without the police standing behind you when you're doing your job?

MrsTerryPratchett · 24/09/2023 22:54

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 24/09/2023 22:49

I don't feel safe doing my job. I work in housing. Someone in my team was threatened on Friday. I frequently attend with police, who stand behind me when I'm doing it. You'd be amazed at the scary people I meet on the regular.

Would you feel safer without the police standing behind you when you're doing your job?

It depends on the officer TBF. I have very good relationships with two of my police liaison officers and they take my lead. Really great both female officers. I've had a couple of male total twats though as well, who make everything worse.

And obviously the first time we learn that we might need the police, we don;t have them there. They aren't asked to any but the most problematic homes. And we've already found out the homes are problematic beforehand. Through experience.

Do I feel safer with police there? Slightly safer than being alone I suppose. But not safer than having another experienced worker there.

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum · 24/09/2023 22:56

Wayne Couzons was a firearms officer. There need to be reasonable checks and balances on the police. If anything they should be held to a higher standard than the general public. This officer made a mistake and a man list his life. There need to be consequences for that.

TimeFlysWhenYoureHavingRum · 24/09/2023 22:56

*lost

LunaNorth · 24/09/2023 22:57

My DH was a firearms officer. His take on it is that if the policeman concerned is being charged with murder, then he clearly didn’t follow the guidelines. As he put it, “Having a gun is a massive responsibility - you’re not allowed to fucking murder people.”

Which seems fair enough. That’s why the police officer who shot Jean Charles de Menezes wasn’t charged - they followed their instructions to the letter. It was just that their instructions were catastrophically wrong.

BygoneDays · 24/09/2023 23:03

Does your proposed indemnity include rape as well? Or just murder?

RaceWithChyna · 24/09/2023 23:11

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4903105-chris-kaba?page=1

I’ve just come across this thead which was posted shortly after mine^ and all I can say is thank God that there are members of the public who are actually willing to use common sense. The comments here are actually quite refreshing

Chris Kaba | Mumsnet

The police officer who shot Chris Kaba has finally been charged with murder. It took a while after investigations had to be held but I’m glad the CPS...

https://www.mumsnet.com/talk/_chat/4903105-chris-kaba?page=1

DontLeanOnTheKeyboard · 24/09/2023 23:41

Police and armed forces are not told to shoot to wound. It is always a kill shot. They are not to,d to shoot to deflate tyres. Their Rules of Engagement are shoot to kill. If you believe there is a credible threat, you shoot to kill. They are not given the autonomy to do otherwise. It isn’t TV.

The courts will decide if his thought process and belief at the time fit within those Rules of Engagement, or not. As I said previously, in the Armed Forces we were given lethal force, in the middle of quiet Lincolnshire. If we found someone trying to enter the base, or accommodation and they didn’t stop when challenged we were expected to take them out, not take them down. We practiced central and head shots, not foot or knee. As do the police. We were also told we would be immediately arrested for murder. Arrested for doing what we were told to do.

What should he have done? Let the car drive head on into them? Let it drive off and possibly injure a member of the public? Let it drive off knowing he was possibly armed, as their knowledge suggested? What would you all be saying if he had done nothing and he shot a member of the public?

A probable lethal threat was treated with lethal force. I don’t think there should be impunity, but I also don’t think it’s tenable to ask them to do a job and then do this. Now he will be off work for probably 5 plus years, whilst the CPS direct their investigation, and then while the IOPC do theirs following the outcome of the criminal investigation.

Take the guns off all of them. Assuming this is from arrogance, making accusations with no knowledge of how it actually works and comparisons to Wayne Couzens. If the facts show this officer acted outside his Rules of Engagement, he will be found guilty. But the immediate assumption of guilt that is so tangible on here, please at least read about how they work.

Good luck, throw the baby out with the bath water. There’s some horrific people, in and out of the police.

neilyoungismyhero · 24/09/2023 23:58

Ilefttownonsaturday · 24/09/2023 09:59

@sleepyscientist is there a reason why you think shooting an unarmed person through a windscreen without making your reason clear a good idea? I'd like to hear your thoughts. Also, by extension, it seems you think Sarah Everard's murderer should be free as well.

I don't think we know why it happened and we won't until he offers his defence. However from what I've read he refused to stop and floored the car towards the officer. If that was correct what was the officer supposed to do ask nicely as he was dragged along the road like the officer who was skinned alive the other year?

The police are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't. They deal with the dregs of life and we vilify them until we need them. It's a bloody thankless job

Mamai90 · 25/09/2023 00:35

Don't be so bloody ridiculous.

What if a police offer murdered your child? Should they not face criminal charges?

The corruption within the police force is crazy. I don't trust them already never mind giving them a free to kill pass!

Nat6999 · 25/09/2023 01:01

Is there any wonder there is no trust in the police, especially the Met after Wayne Cozens & David Carrick? I can totally understand why black people are fearful of any contact with the police & women no longer trust them.

MartinChuzzlewit · 25/09/2023 01:06

Fuck no!!

YABVU

The general public has, fairly, lost confidence in the police in recent years due to some appalling behaviour - ranging from racism, sexism, grotesque WhatsApp groups and all the way up to rape and murder. They need to start rebuilding the trust of the public WAY before we even consider allowing them to be totally lawless when on duty.

That officer deserve that charge. Killing an u armed man? He’s exactly in the position he should be in

buythesouffle · 25/09/2023 01:10

You’re being unbelievably unreasonable.

NumberTheory · 25/09/2023 01:17

Immunity would be entirely unreasonable. Their actions need to be considered in the light of the circumstances. This incident has been investigated for over a year before CPS decided there was a good chance of a murder conviction.

It’s possible that the decision is a political one rather than one that was fairly based on the facts, but there hasn’t been anything yet to indicate that that’s the case.

It’s a problem, though, that other officers don’t think the charge is fair. Whether that’s because they’ve heard untrue rumours/they don’t know the facts and don’t trust the CPS, or because regardless of how wrong the officer’s actions were they don’t feel they should be held accountable, I don’t know. But either situation points to problems with the criminal justice system.

SammyScrounge · 25/09/2023 02:04

bevelino · 24/09/2023 10:11

The unarmed victim was shot in the head and that is completely unacceptable.

You would rather police officers were killed when he tried to ram police cars? I find that attitude unacceptable.
Kaba had an unsavoury criminal history but already he is being sanctified in certain quarters. How different it could all have been if he had only complied with the instruction to get out of the car. 12 times he was told, 12 times he refused before he attacked with the car
.

Nat6999 · 25/09/2023 03:29

Stella Braverman says she supports armed police having immunity. If we don't get rid of her soon, we could end up with the country being like the wild west. She would probably support shoplifters being shot on sight.

ZeldaWillTellYourFortune · 25/09/2023 03:31

OrangeSlices998 · 24/09/2023 09:46

An unarmed man was followed by an unmarked police car, was not a suspect, and was shot without being approached or the risk assessed? Yes the police officer should be charged.

Agree wholeheartedly.

Graciebobcat · 25/09/2023 03:43

sleepyscientist · 24/09/2023 09:43

Anyone else things police officers should have indemnity from prosecution whilst on duty. This poor officer followed a suspect that was believed to be armed, stepped out of his vehicle and into the line of fire to protect us.

Now because it turns out he was unarmed he's not only up on a disciplinary but facing a murder charge. Rightly other officers are stepping back so now our armed capacity is falling......terror attack risk right there! Hopefully any jury finds him not guilty!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12552965/Met-police-protest-Chris-Kaba-murder-charge.html

One of the stupidest ideas I ever heard.

tillytown · 25/09/2023 04:22

Chris was known to the police, he has been in a gang since he was 13 and had been arrested multiple times before. They knew he was in the car as they saw him. The car was used in a armed robbery hours before the shooting. He was shot after stopping when the police tried to pull him over, and then driving the car directly at the officer who was approaching the car, there are videos of this filmed by the residents who had watched the police chase go around their homes. Even his own parents asked people not to protest his death when they saw the evidence of what happened. Why is anyone pretending they don't know this when the information has been out since the day he died?

tillytown · 25/09/2023 04:23

Pushed send too soon, but yes, there should be an investigation into what happened. Why did anyone approach the car by themselves? That bit makes no sense

Graciebobcat · 25/09/2023 04:29

I'm pretty sure there is always an jnvestigation by default when anyone is shot dead by armed police. As there should be.

sashh · 25/09/2023 05:09

sleepyscientist · 24/09/2023 09:43

Anyone else things police officers should have indemnity from prosecution whilst on duty. This poor officer followed a suspect that was believed to be armed, stepped out of his vehicle and into the line of fire to protect us.

Now because it turns out he was unarmed he's not only up on a disciplinary but facing a murder charge. Rightly other officers are stepping back so now our armed capacity is falling......terror attack risk right there! Hopefully any jury finds him not guilty!

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12552965/Met-police-protest-Chris-Kaba-murder-charge.html

Could you explain that to the family of Sarah Everard?

This is the police officers convicted in my area, they include a number of assaults, making indecent images, drink driving - and these are still employed.

https://foi.west-midlands.police.uk/wp-content/uploads/2023/07/704A_23_attachment.pdf

MoonShinesBright · 25/09/2023 05:32

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