Page 5 | Being called ma'am by shop assistants?

floralsilkbonnet · 2023-09-23T14:43:26+00:00

Never before and then twice in the last few weeks. Is it my age (I'm nearly 40, but the shop assistants looked to be a similar age to me) or just something people say now? I don't know if 'Madame' would have been worse or better. I don't think I like it and I'm not sure why. I wanted to say 'I'm not the queen' but that would have been rude so obviously I didn't.

IrresponsiblyCertainAboutSexualDimorphism · 24/09/2023 10:34

Not “marm” though. That’s just silly.

zingally · 24/09/2023 12:00

There's worse things happen at sea.

I remember feeling really grown up when I got accidentally bumped by a child of about 5 in a queue to pay, and the mum said, "Oh childsname! Mind that lady!" I was all of about 16 at the time.

SerafinasGoose · 24/09/2023 22:52

It's equal in status to 'Sir'.

Far prefer it to 'Miss'.

Original poster

floralsilkbonnet · 24/09/2023 23:36

SerafinasGoose · 24/09/2023 22:52

It's equal in status to 'Sir'.

Far prefer it to 'Miss'.

It's not really equal in status to 'sir' if it's not used for all ages as 'sir' is. In my opinion.

OP posts:

Sayitaintso33 · 25/09/2023 07:29

So many people saying it is polite, but if they don't call the shop assistant madame etc in return then they are being rude.

towriteyoumustlive · 25/09/2023 07:34

floralsilkbonnet · 24/09/2023 23:36

It's not really equal in status to 'sir' if it's not used for all ages as 'sir' is. In my opinion.

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It is indeed the female equivalent to Sir.

It IS equal and very polite.

For younger people it would be master or miss.

It's used in martial arts to address a female instructor.

I also teach quite a few Indian students who use Sir and Ma'am to their teachers out of politeness.

SerafinasGoose · 25/09/2023 08:34

towriteyoumustlive · 25/09/2023 07:34

It is indeed the female equivalent to Sir.

It IS equal and very polite.

For younger people it would be master or miss.

It's used in martial arts to address a female instructor.

I also teach quite a few Indian students who use Sir and Ma'am to their teachers out of politeness.

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You said what I would have said, had you not returned to the site first. But as to the OP's comment to which you replied, there is a good point in that. In France and Germany, Madame and Frau are standard for all adult females. Apparently Spain and other places have a similar form of address. To me this would be preferable: 'Ma'am' and 'Mrs' once adulthood was reached, by default.

I'd object to 'Mrs' a lot less were this the case. I retained my own family name on marriage and am technically a 'Miss' (but have been Ms since the age of around 16 irrespective of status).

It is tiresome seeing this form of differentiation between the sexes, and there would then be no question of ageism. Sadly, however, the UK is slow to catch on ...

AngelsWithSilverWings · 25/09/2023 09:35

At my DS's school ( boys state grammar) they have to address all female teachers as Ma'am ( to rhyme with farm)

It sounds so old fashioned to me but a friend who now teaches at the school says she really likes it as she feels respected by the boys.

AngelsWithSilverWings · 25/09/2023 09:37

I should add that they say Ma'am regardless of the age of the teacher. So a newly qualified early 20's teacher would still be addressed this way.

CoffeeCantata · 25/09/2023 09:51

OP - you've given me an excuse to rant on one of my favourite subjects!

Agree with the pp who said 'Miss' was the polite term for women in her culture. I think this is a really sensible approach and precludes the need for 'Ms', which at least at first, looked hard to pronounce.

I think all women should be Miss in professional life (and in formal situations). Liz Taylor was married...was it 8 times??...but she remained Miss Elizabeth Taylor throughout, and I think that's the simplest and most fuss-free solution.

As a teacher I was happy to be 'Miss' and I think that's fine in shops etc too.

Original poster

floralsilkbonnet · 25/09/2023 09:52

For younger people it would be master or miss.

@towriteyoumustlive

Come now! That is simply not the case. Aside from period dramas on the TV young men today are not addressed as 'master' in the UK.

OP posts:

Anewest · 25/09/2023 09:55

It hasn't ever happened to me but I wouldn't mind, I suppose. Maybe feel a bit awkward but that's all.
I wouldn't mind Miss, in fact people seem to assume I'm Mrs or my partner is my husband a lot, so Mrs makes me annoyed! Even if we were married, I personally can't stand the title Mrs so would use Ms.

SerafinasGoose · 25/09/2023 10:30

I think all women should be Miss in professional life (and in formal situations). Liz Taylor was married...was it 8 times??...but she remained Miss Elizabeth Taylor throughout, and I think that's the simplest and most fuss-free solution.

Likewise Doris Day and some of the old-school actresses. If you retained your family name on marriage, you remained 'Miss'.

I retained mine, and was informed: 'Well, you must at least want to change your title to "Mrs"'? Why? I didn't marry my father!

But women who do retain their family names receive quite a surprising amount of pushback. For me, (married 2008) this was unexpected: I didn't think anyone else would give a monkey's how I styled myself, nor that I would invite 20 questions when Computer Says 'Married' but lists my title as Ms. I was told on one occasion 'Well I RESPECTED my husband'. I happen to respect him very much; it's just that for me this didn't involve relinquishing my identity into the bargain.

It was 2008 and if anything I think things have gone backward even further since then. I wouldn't have thought such a small assertion of personal identity in a woman was that outlandish in this day and age. MiL still persists in addressing me as Mrs Hisname, despite DH having requested on numerous occasions that she stop. Therefore either she has memory issues, or she's doing it on purpose to make a point.

It's been 15 years.

Pfannkuchen · 25/09/2023 10:40

floralsilkbonnet · 25/09/2023 09:52

For younger people it would be master or miss.

@towriteyoumustlive

Come now! That is simply not the case. Aside from period dramas on the TV young men today are not addressed as 'master' in the UK.

Postman literally dropped a letter just now addressed to "Master" for my son. Little boys get called or addressed as "master" a lot, I refuse to believe my sons are having an exceptional treatment and are the only ones in the UK 😂

phoenixrosehere · 25/09/2023 10:48

floralsilkbonnet · 25/09/2023 09:52

For younger people it would be master or miss.

@towriteyoumustlive

Come now! That is simply not the case. Aside from period dramas on the TV young men today are not addressed as 'master' in the UK.

The NHS does with my first and oldest son. When my son receives mail from them it says “Master (his forename and surname)” and has done so since he was born. He is 8. Verbally, no, but in forms, yes.

His brother is Mr..

Widowsfire · 25/09/2023 10:54

I know i wont express this propoerly, I think ma'am is used as genuine polite respect in some of the cultures most likely to be working in service positions, whereas white MC wouldn't use it. It's not what you're used to maybe but they are genuinely being polite.

SerafinasGoose · 25/09/2023 11:00

Face it, however women are addressed it's going to be wrong, at least as far as the UK is concerned. This is because we are behind the times. People insist on these pointless sex-based distinctions, announcing women on the basis of their sexual status and attaching assumptions about age to what saluation or title they're given.

I'd happily do away with titles altogether, think it's fine to be addressed as Ma'am (pretty commonplace in the States) and would find it strange to be hailed as 'Miss'.

Whereas none of this is applicable to men and they care less, because they don't have to.

Original poster

floralsilkbonnet · 25/09/2023 11:03

The NHS does with my first and oldest son. When my son receives mail from them it says “Master (his forename and surname)” and has done so since he was born. He is 8.

Verbally, no, but in forms, yes.

Verbally is what the thread is about, so you are correct!

Verbally, young men aren't called master in the UK, for example, and in context of my OP, by shop assistants. They're called 'sir'

OP posts:

Original poster

floralsilkbonnet · 25/09/2023 11:06

Widowsfire · 25/09/2023 10:54

I know i wont express this propoerly, I think ma'am is used as genuine polite respect in some of the cultures most likely to be working in service positions, whereas white MC wouldn't use it. It's not what you're used to maybe but they are genuinely being polite.

But the men who used the mode of address were from the demographic you said wouldn't use it.

OP posts:

Pfannkuchen · 25/09/2023 11:27

floralsilkbonnet · 25/09/2023 11:03

The NHS does with my first and oldest son. When my son receives mail from them it says “Master (his forename and surname)” and has done so since he was born. He is 8.

Verbally, no, but in forms, yes.

Verbally is what the thread is about, so you are correct!

Verbally, young men aren't called master in the UK, for example, and in context of my OP, by shop assistants. They're called 'sir'

again, my own sons have been often addressed VERBALLY as "master". In the UK.

It's really not unusual, I think I am so used to it I say it sometimes to some of their friends.

Original poster

floralsilkbonnet · 25/09/2023 11:47

again, my own sons have been often addressed VERBALLY as "master". In the UK. It's really not unusual, I think I am so used to it I say it sometimes to some of their friends.

I wouldn't like to say you were exaggerating, but that would be highly unusual to be used verbally nowadays (I attended a very formal school in my youth and don't recall it there even!), and even in type is only very young boys. Teenage boys and young men are not referred to verbally as master.

OP posts:

SenecaFallsRedux · 25/09/2023 15:28

At my DS's school ( boys state grammar) they have to address all female teachers as Ma'am ( to rhyme with farm)

In a non-rhotic accent, doesn't this sound like "Mom"? Maybe one of the reasons it's "Ma'am rhymes with ham" for the Royal Family.

UnctuousUnicorns · 25/09/2023 17:31

floralsilkbonnet · 24/09/2023 23:36

It's not really equal in status to 'sir' if it's not used for all ages as 'sir' is. In my opinion.

Show quote history

It is when and if used correctly.

Adult male - Sir
Adult female - Madam (or Ma'am)
Male aged 18 and under - Master
Female...under - Miss

Very formal and perhaps old-fashioned, but again, they are the correct terms of address.

Original poster

floralsilkbonnet · 25/09/2023 20:26

Female 'under' what? Exactly...

It might be considered correct by some in modes of address, but your typical shop assistant in the 21st century does not address under 18 boys as 'master'. I know you didn't say so, but it would be ludicrous to suggest otherwise.

OP posts:

Givemes · 23/12/2023 20:53

I hated it.
I was "Ma'am"ed by the cashier in Barbour whose age is probably two times as mine... I was shocked.
And then another time by the shop assistant in Tesco....
I am in 30's and I know I look younger than my age. Even I am not younger looking than my age, addressing a female in her 30's as Ma'am is appalling.