Being called ma'am by shop assistants?

[floralsilkbonnet]

Never before and then twice in the last few weeks. Is it my age (I'm nearly 40, but the shop assistants looked to be a similar age to me) or just something people say now? I don't know if 'Madame' would have been worse or better.

I don't think I like it and I'm not sure why. I wanted to say 'I'm not the queen' but that would have been rude so obviously I didn't.

As someone who works in retail we can't do right for doing wrong - can't call someone Ma'am/madam/lady/love/sweetheart/duck/darling etc because I'm either being rude or patronising by using the wrong word so in future I'm just going to stick with "You there, what do you want?"

People in retail/service jobs don't know your name so we have to refer to you by some term (because if we don't then we'd be accused of being rude by not acknowledging you or referring to you in any way and/or be unable to refer to a specific person eg "Can I help you madam?", "Are you waiting to be served, madam?" or "I will help you as soon as I've finished helping this lady here," etc) so if you as a general public can all decide on one term that a) isn't offensive to anyone and b) isn't seen as rude/patronising then we would appreciate if you could pass that information on to us retail/service workers so that we can stop offending you by just trying to do our jobs, be polite and not be complained about for doing so to the best of our ability and within the company guidelines.

Female customers are always addressed as ma'am by the staff at my local butcher. Nothing to do with Americanisation or other cultures. They are just being polite in what is obviously now an old-fashioned way.

I’m originally from the USA, have lived overseas 20 years now and in the UK for at least 15 of those. I personally am fine with ma’am; I’m in my mid 40s now and I’m definitely not a “miss”. Tbh I find being called “miss” a bit condescending, like someone is trying to appeal to my vanity by suggesting I’m younger than I am. Like it’s fine, I know I’m not 😆

It isn't rude; it is the polite, formal term of address to use with a woman whose name is unknown to the person addressing her, regardless of her age. If the woman's name is known, but not on informal, first name terms with the person addressing her, then her preferred title plus surname is used e.g. Ms Lambert, Mrs Cartwright etc. If not known, she is formally addressed as Madam. It may sound quaint and old-fashioned to many now, but it certainly isn't rude.

So much this

Just look at this thread

Some like being called "Miss" because it makes them feel younger, some don't because they feel patronised. Some like being called "Ma'am" because its respectful. Others find that patronising.

Several words used at work are terms like "love" and "sweetheart". Not meant to be patronising or offensive. And most don't see it that way. But others will get really worked up.

We should have an universally accepted term. Then everyone might be happy

No, I wasn’t shopping anywhere grand. One instance was Marks and Spencer, and the other an independent shop.

The men were around my age. I’m under no illusion that I’m young, but my initial reaction was it sounded like they were addressing the queen. I’ve honestly never heard ‘Ma’am’ before outside of royalty, military or police, and friends I asked have not.

I’ve never been called ‘miss’ either, not since my schooldays. Majority don’t call people anything at all.

Ma'am may have a British origin but let's not pretend it's always been a common form of address in bog standard shops. I've worked in retail, never heard anyone use this term. Fine if you're addressing a Detective Chief Inspector, weird if you're talking to a customer. It's a newly arrived thing.

What's next, 'thank you for your service'?

Agreed! Ma’am is fine to me.

Sir is age neutral

I remember my French teacher explaining that Mademoiselle is expected to be used and Madam also…no cute usage of Mademoiselle for an older woman.

It is. Though, as I said earlier, I’ve been called Madame (when in France) for many years that I remember. I’m sure I remember that mademoiselle is now considered old fashioned for women so Madame is used much earlier. I’m certain mid 20s at least.

I mean Ma’am is the shortened version of Madame so not sure why one is ok and the other isn’t.

’madam/madame in the UK, as mentioned by someone already, puts in mind of a brothel owner. I don’t mind it in France as it’s used so widely.

People in retail/service jobs don't know your name so we have to refer to you by some term (because if we don't then we'd be accused of being rude by not acknowledging you or referring to you in any way and/or be unable to refer to a specific person eg "Can I help you madam?", "Are you waiting to be served, madam?"

But what is wrong with "Can I help you?" or " Are you waiting to be served?" You've got the second person pronouns there to indicate who you're talking to. It is literally the actual point of pronouns, to be used in place of a noun/proper noun.

But what is wrong with "Can I help you?" or " Are you waiting to be served?" You've got the second person pronouns there to indicate who you're talking to. It is literally the actual point of pronouns, to be used in place of a noun/proper noun.

Exactly.

This is how it's generally done in shops in the UK.

I don't know why some people are acting like it's more complicated than that.

So tell them — not us.

”Please don’t call me ma’am - thank-you will do.”

That ought to go over like gangbusters.

Well I'd rather be called Miss/Ma'am/Madam or any other gendered version of greeting than have everything be gender neutral, which is soon will be. I'll enjoy it whilst I can because we're already losing the words mother and woman and can't address a crowd as "ladies and gentlemen".

Because then you get people complaining that they weren't addressed as sir/madam and say you're rude for not using them (and yes I've actually had someone make that exact complaint to me about a member of staff) ... retail staff can't win.

My philosophy is that retail and service staff cannot, and will not, please everyone regardless of what we do. Therefore, as long as I and my colleagues are polite and are not actively rude to people, anyone who complains because of the way they were addressed will be told that staff members are not psychic and if you have an issue with standard vernacular (IE the use of sir/madam) then it is up to you to be proactive about saying so rather than just complaining after the fact.

and if you have an issue with standard vernacular (IE the use of sir/madam)

I would challenge the idea that this is the standard vernacular

It’s polite address.

As regards Americanisations - I work with a lot of Americans and have found “Sir” creeping into my vocabulary when addressing males(before someone pipes up, nothing misogynist about it - they also recognise and use my title correctly) mostly of US origin.

I use the equivalent honorifics when addressing colleagues/friends in other countries with different native languages and they to me so don’t really see anything wrong with it.

I get "Miss" or "young lady" used in a genuinely nice tone. I’m 34 but baby faced, very short (5ft) and dress like the goth I've always been. The only time it really fucks me off is when I’m dealing with GPs, Doctors or now secondary school staff because they don't think I'm the mother. Makes me want to hoik up my top and show the fucking stretch marks my 11 year old left me with. It makes me genuinely angry not being taken seriously and listened to. Taking DD to secondary school for her first week, we were late one day so I had to take her to reception to sign in. I told the receptionist that we hadn't done this before and I wasn't sure how it worked (ie tap things on a screen or physically write down on a list). She asked if I was "one of our new sixth formers'. I said " "No I’m her Mum". People post about stuff like this but it's no joke, it feels offensive to be dismissed like this.
I WAS a sixth former at that school, 18 years ago. Some of DD's teachers actually taught me too.
Fuck it, I’m buying some stilts for parents evening. If I went in make up free with my grey hairs (there are so many 😭) abounding maybe they'd see me as the parent 🙄

It doesn’t bother me and I certainly prefer it to the “ my love” and “my dear” that I’m sometimes called, typically by people young enough to be my child (I’m 48). 😂 Ma’am is at least respectful towards the
customer .

It's most definitely pronounced 'marm' 😉

It's polite. Maybe you're offended as you feel it means you're seen as old.

Quite! Exactement.

And on reflection I think I'd prefer Madam (a French Madame has never raised an eyebrow after all, and is typical). I just found ´ma'am' (it was pronounced ´marm') very strange.

To me it is old fashioned.

Nothing at all. That seems to be the standard and it works perfectly well and is still polite.

I like “ma’am” in America. It feels respectful and friendly. Compare “Excuse me, ma’am” with “Excuse me” when someone wants to get past. I’m happy for it to make a return to these shores. I already use sir for men e.g. “excuse me sir, you’ve dropped your keys” so am going to adopt ma’am from now on.

I do not like “Miss” at all. It feels as though it is being used to denote supposed inferiority (young woman, old spinster 🙄), especially if used by someone younger than me. And let’s face, it most people are.