To tell them to stick their job where the sun don't shine?!

[Wiggleinherwalk]

Have been offered a new role at my current company of Project Manager in the Comms team, working on some nice events and internal projects. Previously been an EA with 10yrs+ experience, working on projects at Director level, so have relevent applicable knowledge to bring.

Have been offered a 10% payrise, which I haven't argued, but I did say that my condition was to be sponsored to do my PRINCE2 training, paid for by the company, within work hours. I've done project work, but would value learning a more formal approach as I've often had to make stuff up as I've gone along.. HR were positive but the Finance guy has been on A/L for 2 weeks, so hasn't been able to approve the training, and now it feels like a fate accomplished that I'm taking the job whatever he replies, as they've given me a start date of beginning Oct.

Had a meeting with my to be line manager on Thursday and it was awful. Didn't ask me one question about my quals/experience/aspirations for the role. When I mentioned the training her response that the company was 'too fluid' to take such a 'narrow minded and inflexible approach'. I mentioned I'd bought some highly recommended PM books to upskill/familiarise myself with the language/processes, and she laughed at me. Apparently they have some PPTs I can look out that will outline their existing approaches, but that no-one in their team has any formal PM training so they've also just made it up as they've gone along.

Another part of the job is anticipating/booking team member's time, and she joked that I'd need to expect lots of last minute requests and changes. Fine, and these things do happen, but I've heard her working style described as "nice but chaotic", so she ridiculed my desire to learn an organised framework while in the next breath saying she's takes a last minute panic as just an accepted approach?!

She then apologised for coming across as 'so negative' in the meeting.

It's just left me so cold about what should have been a promotion/great opportunity, and that it's not going to be a supportive environment to work with someone so dismissive of change or personal development, and who didn't even ask one question to get to know me.

As background, prior to my current boss I had an AWFUL line manager who put me down, belittled me and meant I lost a lot of confidence. Crying in the loos at lunchtime type situation. Feel like I've just built myself back up again with my current boss, who is lovely, and feel confident in my current role, so just very reluctant to go and work for someone who could make my life miserable again... Feel like I've seen some huge red flags!

So do I just say thanks but no thanks? Or bite the bullet as long term it would be good for my CV, and I LOVE the idea of going into PM properly... But I just don't want to work for another bully...

What are tumour options if you turn this down? Can you stay in your existing job, would you want to stay in your existing job? She’s telling you how it would be in her team - I wonder if she felt threatened by your wanting to study an approved qualification if no one else (including her) has done it?

Who agreed the training - was it a manager above her or did HR smile and nod?

If this is the direction you want to go in, is it worth committing to it for a year to get it in your cv and then looking to move? I sometimes find if I know I have a set timescale I can tolerate less than good work environments if I know it’ll give me something useful.

to be honest prince2 is a bit outdated, it’s no longer a remarkable qualification in the project management industry. I think it would be hard for you to get sign off for the cost of it if the rest of the project managers haven’t had it either. There’s no precedent

also I’ve never come across people negotiating the qualifications they need the company to pay for before they accept the promotion, as the manager should have an onboarding process in place covering training required

I do also think your thought process is a bit regimented. As far as I’m aware project management is a bit more relaxed with things changing at the last minute and constantly iterations and updates. You can have a plan or a structure but it’s unlikely to go as planned so you do need to be flexible and go with the flow sometimes

How did yuu end up on her team without her input?

She is your manager not a friend so how is her reputation as a manager.

If your contract has a fixed number of study hours will she allow you to take the time?

You need to have a plan as to how you want the study to fit into the job and get her to sign off on it at the begining.

Your issue will be that last minute changes are the norm in her department and if she wants someone full time it will only end in conflict.

You are better off having a plan and having that plan enbeded into your contract re time and cost and then making sure she is onboard.

Also I wouldn’t ask any of my team what their qualifications are if it’s not a requirement for the role. Their experience may or may not be relevant (joys of civil service - you take people as they are). Aspirations for the role would come out during our 1 to 1s instead of our first introductory chat.

I wouldn’t judge her to be a bully yet either, she’s already apologised for coming across as negative so seems to want to improve your relationship. Bullies don’t try to make amends like that.

Maybe take the job for the experience and aim to move on as soon as you have learnt all you need to move on into a better paying role with another company?

While I do think you're too focused on qualifications/further study, I think this reflects your own anxiety about taking on a new role that you don't know inside out.

Having said that, I think it's a major red flag that the project management team (and its manager) don't seem to have a clear project control process to follow so they know each project's been fully completed in the correct way that will produce results. I couldn't personally work in such a nebulous and disorganised role when the job is project management and no one actually seems to have a proper system to manage projects.

I'd be turning this down and looking outside the company for your next move unless you are absolutely desperate to get some PM experience (in name only, it sounds like you're not really going to learn transferable skills for how to manage projects in this environment) and that payrise.

I think I’d take the position with the mindset that it’s a 6/12 month ladder step role.

Apparently they have some PPTs I can look out that will outline their existing approaches, but that no-one in their team has any formal PM training so they've also just made it up as they've gone along.

Thats not necessarily a bad thing, the have a process that presumably works for the business which may be better and more applicable than a generic project management process. It’s possible that your idea of the job doesn’t match the reality, but it may still be a good move for you. As much as you want her to be open, you too need to be open to a new role and new team ways of working. That’s how we grow.

Are they actually looking for a Project Manager - or a long suffering PA/Admin to be messed around with as they all announce they can't possibly do the meeting on that day/time without fail?

@singl out of interest what project management approaches do you see being used more now / which are better than PRINCE2?

I do know people who have had MBAs as part of their contract. However that’s expensive! Just reading about the framework for project management helps with organisation and saves a few £££ and then get stuck in. It’s not really a qualification based role.

I have no idea about 'prince2' as this is not my area at all - what would be a better qualification?

OP, if you are think this qualification (or any other for that matter) would help your career long term, then I would push for it at this negotiating stage.
This job may be within the same company, but it is effectively a new job for you - so treat it as such and negotiate!

Good luck

You don't have a contract yet, so why not try to have the beginning date pushed back for that reason so outstanding issues can be cleared up in that time?

Prince2 is quite a dated qualification now and also proposes a very rigid approach which it sounds like doesn't suit this business. You will learn a lot more about project management from being with your team and working in the area every day than you will from a textbook. I really wouldn't let that put you off if they don't fund Prince2. If you really want a qualification maybe look at APM.

@Jellycatspyjamas Yes so I could just stay in my current role, which is working for a nice boss in a nice team doing work where I feel confident I know what I'm doing. He was going to angle to get me a proper payrise in January as I've been doing some good things this year that he agrees should be recognised.

Very much an HR smile and nod, with a 'need to ask Finance' shrug. So very vague and non committal.

@AnSolas There's been a complete reshuffle in the team - the Head of is going on sabatical at the end of the month, potential boss used to work for the company several years ago but didn't come back from mat leave, is now back 2 days a week as a consultant working on a big specific project.

Her working style I've heard is "nice but chaotic', so she has a reputation for forgetting important things/not forward planning time as needed/not bringing in people until last minute and then expecting them to drop everything/work overtime to complete.

PM is all about being organized and being able to forward plan ( as well as able to react and adapt) It doesn’t sound like she is a good fit for her role, if her reputation is true. Have you spoken to people who work directly for her?

could you ask for this job as a one or two year secondment so you can try it out and then go back to your old job if it does not work out?

@Newtt This was exactly my thought process, it's a new role for me and I didn't negotiate the pay (even though it's very bottom end of the going rate) but I did want them to show willing to invest in my development to have a recognised qualification in the job they want me to do...
Not hung up on it needing to be PRINCE2 if that's not the best/most suitable option/is outdated, just that I wanted some skills/a loose framework to start with to know the questions to ask so I didn't feel like I was floundering around trying to figure things out on my own/making mistakes that could be avoided.

@NeverDropYourMooncup This is a worry. Coming from an EA background I hope I've built a reputation for being a safe pair of hands, keeping things on track, and being good at getting and keeping people on side.
I've had a couple of high profile wins this year that have been congratulated at CEO level, so don't know if they're just wanting a dogsbody for the dept to take on the grunt work...

I am a PM and work in a niche industry doing software implementations. These projects are typically 18mths-2years long and take a company from inception to Go live. I have no formal qualifications and do not have Prince 2. A lot of jobs ask for it but when they see my experience then say it doesn't matter. A lot of the role is relatively easy for me as I have domain knowledge, I have been in this niche industry (legal) for nearly 30 years implementing software and doing a whole variety of different roles from training (in the beginning) to consultant to PM Roles.

That said, whilst I personally do not have qualifications there is an pretty much standard approach of how the implementation process works over the timeline of the project and each vendor I have worked for generally has this documented approach and it is followed as part of governance.

What I don't know from your OP is whether the projects are Agile or Waterfall. I do mainly Waterfall and as I said above there is generally an agreed process in place to follow. From the little you have said it sounds like your projects are agile, and in their nature are much more fast paced, short bursts of work rather than a laid out 2 year plan that I would follow.

Personally, as another PP said I think in this situation the qualification is outdated and far less important than your current experience in the company. Of course what you could bring to the role is documenting procedural stages and using resource tools to better plan the resources needed in advance. This would help stop the peaks and troughs and last minute panics but I am unsure if you would have the transparency of what is needed for the project at the outset to do this. For instance when I am working with a vendor (rather than client side) I would get a clear statement of work detailing the amount of effort required (in hours) for each stage of the project. I could have say, 240 hours of PM time over a 2 year project. This gives me 10 hours a month. I know from experience the first month needs 30 hours but other months will need 0, so in my plan I can see what I need to do when and work out how to resource the project. Because of what we are delivering is so transparent then we can predict pretty much the resource required. Of course, not all projects would be run the same way and I should imagine if they are internal they would be completely different.

So what I am trying to say here is you need to look at the work involved, and see where you can add value in planning rather than concentrating on a rather vanilla one size fits all approach that the foundation of Prince 2 might give you.

Hi @Trevorton ,
Thanks so so much for your detailed and thoughtful reply, really appreciated.
So I don't think they follow either Agile or Waterfall as an approach, if that's a recognised way of working - think they have PPT decks/excel docs/a Teams channel that have been developed organically... And then recycle it for the next year. But yes, projects would be 12m max with reoccurring events (AGMs/launches) and a big research piece published annually.
I suppose my worry is just that I'd suddenly be responsible for things/budgets/deliverables/reporting, without having the tools I need to be able to do that. Perhaps naively I assumed a qualification would give me a skeleton for at least what questions need to be asked when, and how to make a Gant chart!

I will reply to you properly in a bit but you can use all sorts of tools to plan. I use smartsheet and it will give you a gant chart view. Suggesting this would probably stand you in good stead, it’s much more advanced than MS project (easy to use, it’s very similar to excel).

It is all about forward planning and what you really need is the timeline, which projects have to be done by when, and how many hours and people they take. So you can say in January we can’t have that deadline in May, Sue is off for a month with planned surgery. We have to put it back or recruit someone to cover. (You also say, last year a similar project took FOUR weeks not two… this is where it can be tricky with a chaotic manager).

You don’t really need a qualification for this.

I'm very suspicious that they think they're getting a good typist/secretary, rather than a PM.

@midlifecrash Thanks for your reply, yes do see that you don't need a qualification to figure it out.
Think I was just hoping for something that would give me a skeleton approach to follow as a starting point to ask the right questions at the beginning of a project, to set achievable goals for the desired outcome, then identify who needs to be involved when, and how to identify issues that might derail things and plan around trying to avoid them.

@NeverDropYourMooncup Yeah.. I hadn't considered this before this thread but I do wonder... Someone to book in the meetings/capture actions/do the grunt work...
Suppose my (perhaps naive) approach was if I was to be a PM I'd want to be the best one I could be, with my idea about the qualification giving me a more rigourous aapproach to 'do it right'..