To tell them to stick their job where the sun don't shine?!

[Wiggleinherwalk]

Have been offered a new role at my current company of Project Manager in the Comms team, working on some nice events and internal projects. Previously been an EA with 10yrs+ experience, working on projects at Director level, so have relevent applicable knowledge to bring.

Have been offered a 10% payrise, which I haven't argued, but I did say that my condition was to be sponsored to do my PRINCE2 training, paid for by the company, within work hours. I've done project work, but would value learning a more formal approach as I've often had to make stuff up as I've gone along.. HR were positive but the Finance guy has been on A/L for 2 weeks, so hasn't been able to approve the training, and now it feels like a fate accomplished that I'm taking the job whatever he replies, as they've given me a start date of beginning Oct.

Had a meeting with my to be line manager on Thursday and it was awful. Didn't ask me one question about my quals/experience/aspirations for the role. When I mentioned the training her response that the company was 'too fluid' to take such a 'narrow minded and inflexible approach'. I mentioned I'd bought some highly recommended PM books to upskill/familiarise myself with the language/processes, and she laughed at me. Apparently they have some PPTs I can look out that will outline their existing approaches, but that no-one in their team has any formal PM training so they've also just made it up as they've gone along.

Another part of the job is anticipating/booking team member's time, and she joked that I'd need to expect lots of last minute requests and changes. Fine, and these things do happen, but I've heard her working style described as "nice but chaotic", so she ridiculed my desire to learn an organised framework while in the next breath saying she's takes a last minute panic as just an accepted approach?!

She then apologised for coming across as 'so negative' in the meeting.

It's just left me so cold about what should have been a promotion/great opportunity, and that it's not going to be a supportive environment to work with someone so dismissive of change or personal development, and who didn't even ask one question to get to know me.

As background, prior to my current boss I had an AWFUL line manager who put me down, belittled me and meant I lost a lot of confidence. Crying in the loos at lunchtime type situation. Feel like I've just built myself back up again with my current boss, who is lovely, and feel confident in my current role, so just very reluctant to go and work for someone who could make my life miserable again... Feel like I've seen some huge red flags!

So do I just say thanks but no thanks? Or bite the bullet as long term it would be good for my CV, and I LOVE the idea of going into PM properly... But I just don't want to work for another bully...

Unless they use prince in the organisation the training isn't going to be very useful it is very technical and prescriptive there are other more flexible approaches that might be better.
Also I think she was probably warning you that there may be last minute changes and requests in the role.
Having said that if you don't feel comfortable taking the role don't.

The main difference is that Waterfall is a linear system of working that requires the team to complete each project phase before moving on to the next one while Agile encourages the team to work simultaneously on different phases of the project. Agile methodology was developed as a response to Waterfall’s more rigid structure.

I copied and pasted the two definitions to explain the difference between the two ways of PM methodology. The documentation you refer to is just the collatoral. I would have the same, a PPT to kick the project off and various bits of documentation required for governance, strategy etc.

Tricky, I am in almost the same position!

I have been asked to become project manager (software) even though I am really a web tester/CRO person

The reason I was asked is that I know the company, and the devs well, and the devs like working with me, and I already do informal project management and chair meetings in a sort of way

It's all VERY improvised and firefighting and there are no processes 😁 (yes this is a successful company though...), I've started documenting processes which is a huge job but it's just so chaotic 🤪

Am thinking through if I can handle it, and have asked if I can do an Agile training course 😁 so quite similar to you.

Am meant to make the job switch in October (ie next week) and will get an offer letter this week.

I have given a provisional "yes" and am thinking that I am planning to give this a go and will re-evaluate in 1 year, and that after 1 year I will have some formal PM experience and will hopefully be more employable should I want to move

So I am going to do this mostly for career development reasons

Good luck, maybe we can have an unqualified PM support group here 😊😁

I'm looking into PM courses and they seem to be insanely expensive!

It does seem like you’ve decided you want to do Prince2 without knowing much about it. Or about project management methodology in general. What kind of roles might you want to do after this one, say in a few years time? What qualifications and experience would you need for that?

on the other hand I would not want to work for such a disorganised boss. Sounds like that would be a horrible clash. I’d stay in current role and hold out for soemthing better to come along.

I hope you get this sorted, sorry they are messing you around.

As an aside, your manager sounds like she'd be just perfect for the current crop of managers the NHS is recruiting...!

I did Prince2 about 20 years ago, paid for by the company and IMO it's a faffy ballache that I barely used in my then role as a project manager.

@Trevorton Thank you for sharing - so they don't have a "methodology" they follow, or I think an awareness of what the ones you'd given are. It's all just muddling through from the sound of it.
I'd be the first person in the team with a PM title, everyone else is Brand Manager or Head of Brand/Comms.

@LadyBitsnBobs
Sounds a bit chicken and egg really - agree I don't know about PM methodology, which is what I'm looking to get, but if I don't do training in it, how am I supposed to get it?! When there's no one in my company who has done it/uses it who can train me internally?
Agree perhaps PRINCE2 as a specific course isn't the most relevent these days, I just google PM courses and that seemed to be the most recognised/utlised qualification, so insert name of suitable course that would give me that insight into what the methodologies are and how to apply them.

Funnily enough I did look into doing it whilst I was already in a PM role. My company offered to pay for it, but on the advice of others that had done it we all went "nah". The guys who had done it said it was pretty hard going and they never really used the foundations in their roles. I think OP, you need to start the job and do some research on tools/methodology etc that will help YOU as a person in this role make it a success, regardless of what they are doing and have done up until now. By the sounds of it any improvements in process you can make would be welcomed.

I think my main issue, rather than whether the course is appropriate or not, or adapting to internal styles of working, as I acknowledge I don't know the answers or the best course of action.
My issue is the attitude of just shooting me down without knowing me at all, dismissing something out of hand without hearing me out, laughing in my face when I said I was taking my own steps to upskill...
I just want to do the best job possible, and be an asset to the team as quickly as possible, so was more asking for what they could do to support that, completely open minded to what that might look like.
It's more the type and style of Manager she gave a very negative first impression of being.
When I said she "apologised" for being negative, it wasn't a concession of not being supportive, but a "well, didn't I just piss on your chips, HAHA!"

But also OP I can totally get your frustration. You literally don't know where to start. I think one thing is key here is that different projects and industries work so differently so without knowing in more depth what your projects are delivering as an end goal it is hard to advise. I know I work in legal tech, most of my jobs have been about delivering software as I explained above from inception to completion over a long time frame, this was my comfort zone. This included multiple people and skill sets and I see myself as the conductor of an orchestra. I did however do a stint for 3 months for another legal tech firm where the implementation was short (8-12 weeks) with one consultant. No real plan, just get it done. I couldn't cope, there was no step by step logic or process, no plan, no timeline. I just felt like a glorified PA putting meetings in the diary. You couldn't plan anyhow as you couldn't resource book, it could just be you grabbed an hour of someone's time when free or when the client was free. Very odd structure to me!

I wouldn't be bothered at all about the Prince qualification, however the rest of the conversations you've had are absolute red flags.

In my experience as a PM, the last minute unorganised is a recipe for anxiety and a huge amount feeling like you're never on even ground.

I've worked on a few contracts like that, and it does lead to playing firefighter, trying to cover everyone's arses so no one looks unprofessional, generally finding out that the end client has expectations that haven't been conveyed or taken in properly, and I always lost personal time trying to make up for missed details.

I'd maybe accept it as an opportunity with it in mind that this isn't the long term place to work, but somewhere to prove myself, with the intent on finding another role in the not too distant future.

Ah op as.soon as I read your op I knew you were going to say you don't have a methodology haha. It sounds like from a project management perspective your company lacks maturity and capabilities in the PM team and for them project management is very much delivery focused and lacks governance? This is quite typical for organisations that are new to project management. I'm assuming they don't have a PMO dept? Generally they would be the best people to speak to to understand what documents you would need to make sure the project is set up correctly, for example a business case and a project initiation document are pretty key elements in the planning stages. If the organisation isn't mature in its approach to project management I can see the reluctance to pay for formalised training as they don't see the value (I don't necessarily agree with this, they would probably benefit enormously from more control over project oversite but are unlikely to invest if that's not the done thing there). You could go on LinkedIn as there are lots of free courses that would help get you set up with the basics. If you are keen to move into PM you could use this job as a stepping stone while doing some self training in the backgroud

As others have said, Prince2 isn't suited to an organisation like yours. I'd take the job, get the hands on experience and do some introductory PM courses on the side. Maybe look at APM courses and online tutorials on lightweight PM tools. One of the best PMs I worked with was an ex EA. She delivered some huge projects and ended up at MD level.

@oksothisisusnow Yes! This exactly!! This is exactly what I'm worried it will be like, and what I'm trying to do as much as possible from what I have available to me to avoid!
Think it would be good for my CV as a stepping stone, as I do like the idea of going into PM as it seems like the bits I enjoy most about being an EA, just having worked for a horrible line manager before I'm just extra wary of signing up to work closely with someone who didn't seem to have any respect for me whatsoever 😔

@OnlyFannys No, we don't have an PMO department, it's a marketing agency made up of smaller teams, so within each team we have an Operations Manager who looks after the specific teams workflows/deadlines/resource bookings etc for client work, and they have set processes/templates they use, so I could see what they do that could help me, but the team I'd be joining is internal and external comms for the whole company and seems to be more delivery focused.

I work in a company that has both a very prescriptive PMO and also utilizes the fly by the seat of your pants project management. To be honest both are effective. Disclaimer; Outside of specific circumstances I tailor my PM activities to the project I’m leading.

What won’t be effective is to try to institute a rigid methodology into a go with the flow group. From some of your comments this is sounding like product management or similar. (Maybe I’m wrong there) which, again in my experience, tends be way more fluid than a software project.

The good news is walking into a less formal group, it’s unlikely that you’ll be suddenly asked for project plans a Gantt charts. You will likely be asked to use the existing framework but it’s likely you will have a lot of latitude beyond that.

LinkedIn Learning has a ton of PM courses which are really good. There are 1,000’s of free templates available online. But I’ve learned it’s best not to overthink things sometimes.

The last thing I’m going to mention is that you seem very antagonist towards the role and line manager already, That’s not a great place to be starting a new role. So I would take a step back and really ask yourself what the main issues are. If the role/team isn’t the right fit that’s ok. If you’re scared of the unknown that’s ok too. If you need to recalibrate expectations based on the new information be open to it.

At any rate good luck!

@notquiteruralbliss Yes the Mumsnet consensus seems to be PRINCE2 not worth the effort - I just mistakenly thought that was the recognised Foundation course for being a PM.
So very open to whatever introductory PM course would be best, just to get that foundation knowledge of how to approach things rather than having to completely invent the wheel myself.

It was more my prospective new line managers dismissive approach to not even discuss it with me, or reassure me that there were alternatives to provide the support I was highlighting I felt I needed, just implied I was narrow minded and laughed at me... ☹️

@saltinesandcoffeecups Thank you for your message, and taking on board everything you're saying about rigid vs more flexible approaches.
So that was a fear, that I'd suddenly be asked to produce a Gant chart, when I'd currently have no idea with where to start!
Thank you for the pointer to LinkedIn Learning and online templates, I'll definitely take a look as that sounds exactly what I'm looking for, just to have some starters!
Not sure antagonistic is the right word - think I'm more hurt than angry as I went into the meeting excited to meet her for the first time, hear more about what I'd be doing, and she just cut me off or shot me down every time I opened my mouth. Do feel quite scarred from previous Terrible Boss, so perhaps being overly sensitive, but I just really don't want to feel like that again...

Or she was trying to reassure you.

Managers forget from time to time that people are new or are nervous and laugh because what the new person is suggesting is way more than what’s needed and the clumsy laugh it’s a way to try to convey that.

I’ve done it, I’m sure. Did I mean to laugh-no. Was I laughing at or belittling the employee- no. Did I unintentionally make them feel bad- Sadly I probably did. Did the new person look back and think ‘yeah I was worried about whatever unnecessarily that suggestion was too much’ most certainly.

Or she sucks 🤷‍♀️ I don’t think anyone including you has enough info to go on at the moment.

I think we cross posted. Glad I could help a little. Terrible bosses leave their mark that’s for sure. I really do wish you luck and fortune be it with this role or another one!

@saltinesandcoffeecups
That's a much nicer way of looking at it, and yes I'm sure I've been guilty of the odd awkward laugh at times too.
I just hate that feeling of floundering, being expected to do something but having no idea how to start. This will be out of my comfort zone, so was just wanting a few tools in my toolbox to try and start well! But perhaps my suggestions for needing formal training are taking a sledgehammer to a walnut.

That's a much more positive way of framing it... Do admit I've got some line manager baggage, where I was probably on the verge of being depressed due to how I was treated, so perhaps that's colouring the way I'm seeing it or jumping to thinking the worst of her..
She's always been described to me as "nice but chaotic" so perhaps give the benefit of the doubt about the nice bit.
Thank you 💕

I'd take advantage of it, take a side qualification, or try to get some paid by the company, and view them as a means to an end.

The job title of Project Manager, some PM achievements under your belt and a qualification you studied for in your own time will count for way more than a PRINCE2 certificate.

F