To tell them to stick their job where the sun don't shine?!

[Wiggleinherwalk]

Have been offered a new role at my current company of Project Manager in the Comms team, working on some nice events and internal projects. Previously been an EA with 10yrs+ experience, working on projects at Director level, so have relevent applicable knowledge to bring.

Have been offered a 10% payrise, which I haven't argued, but I did say that my condition was to be sponsored to do my PRINCE2 training, paid for by the company, within work hours. I've done project work, but would value learning a more formal approach as I've often had to make stuff up as I've gone along.. HR were positive but the Finance guy has been on A/L for 2 weeks, so hasn't been able to approve the training, and now it feels like a fate accomplished that I'm taking the job whatever he replies, as they've given me a start date of beginning Oct.

Had a meeting with my to be line manager on Thursday and it was awful. Didn't ask me one question about my quals/experience/aspirations for the role. When I mentioned the training her response that the company was 'too fluid' to take such a 'narrow minded and inflexible approach'. I mentioned I'd bought some highly recommended PM books to upskill/familiarise myself with the language/processes, and she laughed at me. Apparently they have some PPTs I can look out that will outline their existing approaches, but that no-one in their team has any formal PM training so they've also just made it up as they've gone along.

Another part of the job is anticipating/booking team member's time, and she joked that I'd need to expect lots of last minute requests and changes. Fine, and these things do happen, but I've heard her working style described as "nice but chaotic", so she ridiculed my desire to learn an organised framework while in the next breath saying she's takes a last minute panic as just an accepted approach?!

She then apologised for coming across as 'so negative' in the meeting.

It's just left me so cold about what should have been a promotion/great opportunity, and that it's not going to be a supportive environment to work with someone so dismissive of change or personal development, and who didn't even ask one question to get to know me.

As background, prior to my current boss I had an AWFUL line manager who put me down, belittled me and meant I lost a lot of confidence. Crying in the loos at lunchtime type situation. Feel like I've just built myself back up again with my current boss, who is lovely, and feel confident in my current role, so just very reluctant to go and work for someone who could make my life miserable again... Feel like I've seen some huge red flags!

So do I just say thanks but no thanks? Or bite the bullet as long term it would be good for my CV, and I LOVE the idea of going into PM properly... But I just don't want to work for another bully...

Some of us good managers are totally described as ‘nice but chaotic’ 😜

(Lol-I even got a ‘world’s best boss’ mug from my team this year (I hope it wasn’t ironic!)

I once had a project member comment ‘Oh great it’s another Saltinesandcoffeecups Choose your own adventure project.’ He wasn’t wrong 🤣

I’m guilty of missed handoffs but they’ll at least get a ‘shit…totally my fault’ when it happens

But with all my faults my team gets support with tools, clear expectations, and backing, I’ve been able finagle 50% raises for 3 of them, many have gotten good experience and gone on to bigger and better roles, and they get to operate autonomously and own their roles.

PM with 20+ years experience here.

PM methodology is best applied with the context of the organisation and project type. The best you can do for your career is to explore the various options and then build a style of management that suits you.

I personally HATE software/application dev projects delivered in an Agile methodology. I am a planner and prefer physical infrastructure projects that benefit from a waterfall approach.

I am PMP certified and have done Agile and Prince 2 courses. They each have good and bad points.

One thing I will say is that if the department has a less structured approach then Prince 2 will never work - you will end up frustrated and constrained.

Good project management is being able to harness the right skills at the right time and to be able to clearly communicate and advocate for the best outcome for your project. Try not to put the cart before the horse.

I would take the role as a learning opportunity.

The most important thing in a comms team is a can-do 'tude.

The only thing that would work 'waterfall' is a document publication, once you have final text.

Almost everything else would be waterfall.

Likely what you can do to add value in a team like that is document some processes.

Otherwise, you need to learn to adapt quickly and have an all hands to the pump mentality.

I've managed huge scale comms projects for 2 decades.

Never needed a project manager except on a large digital transformation project and all they did was make a list of what needed to be done and when. We couldn't do it without them because we didn't know the steps.

Your expert comms colleagues will know the steps. In a couple of days, you could talk them through, document them, and then work out with them the best order for these to happen. Bingo -- system sorted.

I wonder why they think they need a project manager -- if it's event planning there are millions of templates online for that. But you'll learn more running one event than any course. So most comms people have run hundreds of events and don't sweat the process.

@MiniBossFromAus and @polkadotclip, thanks so much for taking the time to respond, so helpful to have advice from people actively doing the job and will definitely take your words of wisdom on board.
Generally do have a positive, 'can do' attitude so hope that will return now I'm feeling a bit more optimistic about things, and not being expected to turn up knowing all the answers.
Think I got noticed as I ran a super successful event over the summer for my smaller team (~40 people), so now the move is to work on the company events for over 500, plus manage our intranet, online resources and comms, and our annual publication, amongst other things.

Agree with others re Prince 2. I'm a practitioner and hate the rigidity of the approach and process. Agile is a much better. I'm sure you can get free agile training on platforms like Future learn.

Thanks so much @Remagirl , I'll take a look 😊

@Wiggleinherwalk
could you teach yourself the information needed and try to have a more proactive approach to the new role ?

I just hate that feeling of floundering, being expected to do something but having no idea how to start.

Yes, everyone does. However I hope this thread has made you realise that the solution isn’t to stipulate the company pays for a qualification you don’t need, then judge your new manager for not being enthusiastic about it during your first introductory chat.

Instead during an introductory chat, you should ask: What will the first few weeks in the role look like? What training will I receive? Can anyone give me a handover and share best practice? Are there resources you can send to me? Is there anything I can do to prepare before I start?

Project management isn’t really an industry that requires qualifications. It sounds like you haven’t necessarily researched what a PM does, and are going off a really cursory search. You need to trust your company to give you the tools you need to succeed, and if it doesn’t happen then raise the suggestion of qualifications. I think you’ve gone about things back to front almost.

If, after asking the questions above and seeing what they propose, you feel like the job isn’t a right fit then turn it down.

I will go against the grain here a little.

The education and quallifications you can get in your current job can help you get your next job. You may have picked the "wrong" qualification but if you want to do formal study and work go for it.

Apart from anything else it is a non-cash payment for the work you do which you lock into your contract. A study day is worth 1/260 of your current salary. And you only get 1 chance to negoitate your base /staring point in a new role so if you price in PRince plus study days and find an alternative the company are only debating a price variation not the fact that they have a contraced obligation to support your study goal. So you agree the wording of your contract to say Prince or similar quallification

Once the study is agreed you could look at the HR requirements of jobs that you think you may want and see what qualifications are most listed and whats involved and work from there.

Hi @singl , thanks for your message and for the questions to think about, which I will definitely note down and take with me into next week and into the first week of the new job. Think will be super useful to have in back of mind 😊

However, I think @AnSolas's reply regarding qualifications is more where I'm coming from - this is a new role, and this is the time that I have (theoretically) the power of negotiation, so I don't think it's wrong to say that I'd like some kind of recognised learning as part of what I'd like from their offer. I haven't negotiated their salary offer.

I have acknowledged PRINCE2 is not the right one, and that I hadn't researched it enough before naming it, I just saw it as the leading provider, e.g. if you're in HR you could get CIPD qualified - I thought it was (wrongly) the same thing for being a PM, just the default one you do for best practice. But using CIPD as a comparison, it could be reasonable to ask your employer to sponsor you to do that, if they transfer you into an HR role, as part of your negotiation for the new contract?

Also, just to add to @AnSolas 's point about putting me in good stead for a future new role in a new company, I've heard PM qualifications can almost be part of a CV sift criteria - do you have it? Yes - Next stage. No - in the reject pile.

So I just don't want to make myself less employable in future, if I would have the opportunity now to try and get something in place to improve future prospects!

Speaking as someone with a Masters in Project Management I totally disagree. Lots of people who haven't a clue what they're doing deliver projects, doesn't make them competent project managers.

@DisquietintheRanks Thank you, and amazing that you've achieved a Masters in PM!
Yes, this is quite what I'm thinking - you probably don't NEED quals, and I'm sure I could muddle through well enough after a bit of time, and mostly get perfectly acceptable results, but imagine how much better and more efficient that work could be, and perhaps those results would be GREAT instead of good, if I had a more defined approach!?

Thank you so much everyone who has taken the time to comment btw - went into the weekend feeling so dejected and hopeless, but with some words of wisdom, reality checks and some tough love I'm feeling like I can go into next week with a much clearer idea of what I want, the questions I need to ask, and what a potential plan of action might be.
Has completely adjusted my mindset and made me feel hopeful about it all again, so thank you so much for sharing your advice xx

I think this is key. I guess your line manager usually manages comms managers and officers rather than project managers. Is there a reason they're putting a PM in the comms department? She is probably thinking that the rest of her team manage projects all the time on top of doing the communications work without a qualification in project management.

I would have another meeting with her and see where you get. I can understand you being disheartened at her dismissiveness but maybe see if you can start afresh?

Re: quals, I have done PRINCE2 practitioner, Agile practitioner and APM PMQ - and the APM one was by far the most practically useful. I did quite a few courses including SAFe when I was a PM as my company pays for them and to be honest I think learning on the job and especially from experienced people gave me so much more than the courses did.

I do think there is a false belief in many organisations that project management can be done off the side of your desk by any old person but in my experience the best PMs haven't necessarily got all the quals but are pragmatic, good leaders and communicators.

Good luck, whatever you choose.

@mewkins I think you're exactly right, no other people with PM titles in the department, or the business really - we have Ops Managers instead for client work. And they themselves don't have any qualifications.
Not sure why they've suddenly decided they need one - I think to support while the head of the department is away to be progressing everything in their absence and keep things ticking along?

It would make me think that they don't really know what a pm does or how you'd fit in with the rest of the team.