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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Inclusion policies are not working

629 replies

somewherbetweenHoneyandTrunchbull · 22/09/2023 23:44

I am an experienced teacher. And every year budgets are being cut and more and more children are being chucked into mainstream. Non-verbal, extremely sensitive to noisy kids being put into an overcrowded open plan mainstream school. Some have a little speech but couldn't hold a conversation. Many not toilet trained. Many cannot control their emotions and anger. Some where English isn't a first language. Many with social work involvement and living through ongoing trauma at home.
Meanwhile support staff numbers are being cut, year on year.
I had been managing just about. Spinning many plates. Constantly juggling. But then they enrol another two kids with complex needs into my class on 28 individuals. I just can't do it any more. This week I've been bitten, scratched, hit so hard I thought they had cracked a rib. Violent incident forms all filled in but reality means not much will change as I can't get more that 2 20 minute slots of teaching assistant time each week.
I love my job. I love the kids. I love those lightbulb moments. But at the moment I can't do my job of teaching children. I can barely keep them and myself safe in my class. I try. I'm exhausted. I'm worn out working day and night so that I'm super organised so everything can go smoothly but it never does. If it was just one child having a meltdown I probably coolyld cope. I just do t know which firework will go off when. I don't know what is setting them off and once they go, others follow.
I cry most days at how hopeless it feels. I have some really bright and eager children too. They are also being let down by this system. I'm not sure who the current education policies help. It doesn't seem to help anyone except desensitising children to daily bouts of violence and the language.
I'm very broken tonight. I'm so sleepy but won't help x

OP posts:
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12
itsgettingweird · 23/09/2023 08:48

Then they tried to just strip it from his EHCP as he wasn't making fast enough progress.

Yes this seems to be some warped current thinking.

"What we're doing isn't working so we'll do nothing"

There's no willingness (or probably funding) to actually try something else that will/May work Angry

Elisheva · 23/09/2023 08:49

It is not fair on the children with SEND. Simply being in a mainstream school is not inclusion. Working in the corridor with your 1:1 all day is not inclusion. Having your own table inside the classroom with different tasks from everyone else is not inclusion. Sitting nicely on the carpet, but being unable to understand what the teacher is talking about is not inclusion.
Having to work with the same group of children all the time, even if you don’t like them or your needs are not the same is not inclusion.

Pollyputhekettleon · 23/09/2023 08:52

KnittedCardi · 23/09/2023 08:47

Can I ask a genuine question? Way back, these kids were in separate provision. Did it work better? The move at the time was that parents wanted inclusion not exclusion, but has this turned out to be a failed policy. Other countries seem to have hybrid systems where kids are often on the same site, but in separate classrooms. Surely that would be a better solution for all.

It's kind of academic to be honest. If the numbers of disruptive children and children with SEN keeps increasing at the rate it has recently there is no society that can fund the number of trained adults necessary to take care of them and educate them as well as all the other children, even if it wanted to.

Greenberg2 · 23/09/2023 08:52

feralunderclass · 23/09/2023 08:34

You do realize that not all dc with SEN are aggressive, violent, in nappies, PEG fed or in wheelchairs? And you really can't see why inclusion helps anyone? God forbid your dc might be exposed to a child with Downs syndrome or dyslexia 😵
I'm personally shocked by the OP. I have one dc who is severely disabled and another with ASD and I have been in parent support groups for many years. I have never, ever heard of children with such significant needs not having a full time 1:1. I have heard of such children with full time funding being at home for 2 years because the LA can't find a school who will take them.
Every child has the right to an education. Teachers (who I have every sympathy for) can vote with their feet, but these dc literally have no choice, and as a parent who is aware that the teacher would rather not have my dc in their school it is utterly heartbreaking.

Of course your children have the right to an education. But surely it's better that it's tailored to their needs. I don't think the OP is talking about a child with dyslexia. She is talking about a child whose needs are so severe that they cannot follow basic lessons or classroom instructions. Surely those children would be better off learning in an environment that was completely structured to give them the education that meets their needs?

Elisheva · 23/09/2023 08:56

My LA seem to be going down the route of resourced provision, special needs classrooms within mainstream schools, which sounds promising. However, early signs is that they aren’t going to fund them properly either. The one I visited this week has one teacher and two TAs to 10 children, which means that when they need changing there is only one member of staff left in the classroom.
The current plan is to grab a TA from mainstream to help out during toileting times…

TheNortherner · 23/09/2023 08:59

Redlocks28 · 23/09/2023 08:01

I completely agree. If you look on the Exit the classroom Facebook group-there are thousands of people who also feel the same way and have voted with their feet.

Inclusion doesn’t work if if it comes with no funding; it just means that everyone misses out. You can’t teach proper lessons with 2 children in nappies, 2 with unmedicated ADHD, 3 with ASD, one with a VI and one who is PEG fed with ‘a bit of extra LSA time between 10-12’.

Government ministers will never use state mainstream school like this for their child, so don’t give a shit.

The DfE plan to solve the recruitment and retention crisis is to have a huge workload team to try to find ways to cut 5 hours workload a week. This team is full of academy CEOs-I’m not sure if there is one classroom teacher amongst them. The findings will probably be something like, ‘work smarter, not harder’ and that’ll be that…

I don’t know a single teacher who doesn’t want to leave-it shouldn’t be like this. I loved teaching so much when I first started. The job is simply unrecognisable from then.

This all day long. It doesn't matter where you sit on the political spectrum, those in the position of power will not be sending their kids to the local comp...unless it happens to be selective in someway.

spanieleyes · 23/09/2023 08:59

Sometimes inclusion- or at least the semblance of inclusion does work. We currently have two year 6 children in school. One has Downs and one is severely autistic. Both have been through the school since Reception, in theory they are included, they sit in the classroom, they go out to play at the same time, they have lunch at the same time, in effect they have a parallel school life to the other children- they have their own curriculum. The other children have grown up with both and they are kind and caring towards them( for the most part) . They and the other children in school have benefited from being together.

What they are not is violent, aggressive and disruptive. Inclusion doesn't work when it impacts adversely on both this with additional needs and those without.

MoonShinesBright · 23/09/2023 09:01

This reply has been deleted

This has been deleted by MNHQ for breaking our Talk Guidelines.

TheNortherner · 23/09/2023 09:02

@spanieleyes only two with additional needs...round here, a third of the class seems to need special consideration in one form or another.

chosenone · 23/09/2023 09:04

It’s starting to filter up to Secondary and looks like it’s going get increasingly difficult to manage and meet need. Our school is completely over capacity in providing safe places for children with EHCP, we have SEN provision attached to our site. The LA have sent far more children than there is capacity for and we’re told to cope. The students who attend mainstream rarely have TA support because they are needed to provide personal care for wheelchair users, peg feeding, administering meds, OT etc.

We have a robust behaviour system but this then leads to students with EHCP being removed from classes and their learning. This could then lead to failing an Ofsted inspection as we are failing to meet the child’s needs. So put them back in the classroom, with no support and said child can run amok, being violent, shouting and screaming and destroy any meaningful lesson for the other 30. Within the other 30 there will be at least 5 with SEN needs that could cover ASD/ADHD/dyslexia/ DCD/ VI/HI

So we’re set up to fail! Unfair on everyone 😓

Mumofsend · 23/09/2023 09:05

Elisheva · 23/09/2023 08:56

My LA seem to be going down the route of resourced provision, special needs classrooms within mainstream schools, which sounds promising. However, early signs is that they aren’t going to fund them properly either. The one I visited this week has one teacher and two TAs to 10 children, which means that when they need changing there is only one member of staff left in the classroom.
The current plan is to grab a TA from mainstream to help out during toileting times…

I agree. It's a brilliant idea and as a parent of two high needs children I love the idea. As someone who also works in a statutory SEND service for some reason the resource bases just don't seem to work. Pop-up self contained specialist classes do better but they have zero mixing with the school they are located within. They are basically off-site specialist classrooms

spanieleyes · 23/09/2023 09:06

Oh no, I didn't mean we only have 2 with additional needs, we have two year 6s in the same class with EHCPs where inclusion has been possible, we have SO many where it is a daily battle!

Elisheva · 23/09/2023 09:06

*Sometimes inclusion- or at least the semblance of inclusion does work. We currently have two year 6 children in school. One has Downs and one is severely autistic. Both have been through the school since Reception, in theory they are included, they sit in the classroom, they go out to play at the same time, they have lunch at the same time, in effect they have a parallel school life to the other children- they have their own curriculum. The other children have grown up with both and they are kind and caring towards them( for the most part) . They and the other children in school have benefited from being together.

What they are not is violent, aggressive and disruptive. Inclusion doesn't work when it impacts adversely on both this with additional needs and those without.*

Do they have proper friends? Not just people being kind to them? Have they ever had a lead role in a school production? Been on the school council? Taken part in a classroom discussion? Won a race at sports day? Spent any time in a group of children without an adult hovering nearby? Had a girlfriend/boyfriend? Got to choose what game was being played in the playground? Fallen out with their mates? Been invited to a birthday party? In a specialist provision they would be able to do all these things.
Where are they going for secondary?

BlueIgIoo · 23/09/2023 09:07

SparkleBubble · 23/09/2023 01:48

Is it mainstream that's the problem, or is it the lack of support?

We have a tiny number of special schools were I live (and none in my region) so most children go to their local mainstream school.

For many, it's mainstream. Lucky kids get a TA, which means their main support is not from a qualified teacher. We're always told to make use of calming breakout rooms. Great, how can 5+ children all use the same room at once? Not to mention our school was built in the 19th century, not exactly a time when they were thinking of inclusion.

Ultimately, being in the same room as children your age, with whom you're incapable of learning alongside, is not inclusion.

Redlocks28 · 23/09/2023 09:07

There is also a large question mark over who these ‘Trained adults’ are. We had an EHC agreed for a pupil whose mum assumed this would give him a full time autism teacher. What it actually funded was mornings only with a mum from the school playground who was the only person who applied for the job. She had qualifications at all, aside from a handful of GCSEs.

I think there are a lot of people in government who think inclusion is just ‘attending school’. There is no thought about what that actually looks like for that child.

Sirzy · 23/09/2023 09:10

The thing is by identifying and supporting needs properly from a young age, and by regularly reviewing and being open to change then everyone wins. The problem at the moment is the vast majority of children with additional needs don’t have needs met, and often it’s those with the “lower level” needs who come off worse.

ds has had an ehcp since year 1, in year 3 we hit crisis so I fought to get the support right and had a fantastic school onside. Since then he has had full time 1-1. He is now in year 9 and mainstream he does à reduced timetable that works for him. Because he is supported he is doing well, his 1-1 knows him well enough to know when to step in so he doesn’t disrupt the class at all.

but I had to fight to get that and that shouldn’t be the case.

Ylvamoon · 23/09/2023 09:13

@feralunderclass - the OP is talking about the before children are given funding and spend years at home because schools reject them as cannot meet their established & documented needs.

You should know, diagnosis and putting a plan in place takes years not days. During this time the child is pushed into mainstream schools because parents (rightly) want their child to be educated.

It's often when the school turns around and says we can't meet the child's needs, that things get moving.

Or a school looks at the plan and believes they can help the child only to find out later that the child is struggling with sitting still or the noise of 150 kids in the playground. Situations, the child hasn't been exposed before. Then what?

spanieleyes · 23/09/2023 09:15

@Elisheva

Which is why I said the " semblance " of inclusion. Because it isn't really. All the things you say they probably haven't experienced, to a greater or lesser degree. Not through want of trying but because they simply can't. The child with Down's syndrome can't run as fast as the others, the child with autism doesn't have the same interests as others, both have different communication abilities, different personalities and different needs. By the time they get to year 6 the chasm between them and their peers is huge. Both will ( if we can get it agreed- it hasn't been yet) go on to specialist secondary . We have done the best we can, it's not good enough but it's all we can do.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 23/09/2023 09:15

I was driven out by this. I taught Textiles in secondary. I had 3 visually impaired kids with no support. They were using sewing machines which have dangerous moving needles which they couldn’t see. I could either sit with them or deal with the other 22. And these had ASD, ADHD, anger management issues, behaviour disorders, speech disorders, disruptive behaviour, absconding behaviour, anxiety issues, sensory issues. It was just crazy.

itsgettingweird · 23/09/2023 09:20

Meaningful inclusion could mean partnerships between special schools and mainstream, sharing of sites, facilities and events for example.

We are lucky to have outreach and offer this. But sadly parents have to facilitate bringing their children themselves. The truth is so many (usually mums) if disabled children can't work and so it's expected they are available during school day for shorter days and/or taking their children to stay and play outreach sessions in a school that can provide what they need.

AllProperTeaIsTheft · 23/09/2023 09:21

I don’t know a single teacher who doesn’t want to leave-it shouldn’t be like this. I loved teaching so much when I first started. The job is simply unrecognisable from then.

Yes. People could maybe kind of cope with the unreasonable workload or the behaviour problems, but dealing with both is untenable long-term.

Coolblur · 23/09/2023 09:22

I'm not a teacher but have several friends who are. There was a disruptive violent pupil in my son's class who hurt kids, and the teacher, on a daily basis, causing the classroom to be evacuated several times when he had a violent meltdown. Nothing was being done by the school.
One day my son was hurt. The teacher spoke with me, promised to keep him safe etc, said they are working with the child (no name given obviously, but DS told me). My teacher friends, who all had direct experience of similar issues, advised to complain directly to the school asking what measures exactly were being put in place to protect my son and others, and to encourage other parents to do the same. Some already had, but others whose children had been injured did so too. Apparently it's the only way any meaningful can be done.
The child was allocated a 1 to 1 support worker in the classroom, time out of the class to do other things to help them, and monitored/supported closely at breaks and lunch. It was exactly what the child needed and sorted out the disruptive, violent behaviour in school.

It shouldn't take multiple violent incidents resulting in injury, and many escalated complaints to the school head for enough 'evidence' to be gathered to justify the cost of an additional support worker, or other adjustments appropriate to the childs needs, but sadly that's how it works.

Elvisrockstar · 23/09/2023 09:23

Is it a similar state of affairs in other countries does anyone know? Are there other countries that we could learn from?

somewherbetweenHoneyandTrunchbull · 23/09/2023 09:24

I have at least 4 in my class that 5 years ago would all have had 1-1. We are in Scotland. I only have extra support for 20 minutes twice a week. My class also has 3 half hour slots of SFL time. Where a small group of kids get some extra support.
The rest of the time it is just me, trying to get everyone learning whilst also stopping the violent ones throwing chairs.
I've bought more ear defenders and with my own money so that most kids can have a pair to concentrate as it gets very noisy.
If someone needs a nappy change I have to radio through but often I have to leave the next door teacher keeping an eye on them to go and change them myself.

OP posts:
MrsMarzetti · 23/09/2023 09:25

MidnightOnceMore · 23/09/2023 08:08

The lack of funding is awful, it's just awful for parents of children who need the support (and the children of course!) and it makes things hard for everyone in school.

This government have systematically dismantled and undermined state education. It makes me furious..

It is also awful for the children that don't need support but are having their education disrupted on a hourly or daily basis or are being assaulted by SEN children. The whole education system is a mess.