To try and dispel some rape myths since we're all talking about it ?

[bemorebernard]

I did some training with one of rape crisis most eminent psychologists.

There are 4 categories of rapist

1. sadistic rapist - the Fred west type , they get off on humiliation, terror , violence , they get salacious pleasure from causing pain . Very rare .

2. angry rapist - the frenzied attacker . Think the Yorkshire ripper . Most likely to come to police attention.

3. the opportunist rapist - they will use violence as a means to and end . But they don't get off on the violence , it's a way to get the sex they want .

4. now this is important so listen up
   The compensatory rapist. Never uses violence .the most complex and clever . The most difficult to investigate. THEY DO MOT SEE THEMSELVES AS RAPISTS. They utilise distorted thinking to justify their actions. "Women like it , when they say no they mean yes , men are t mind readers ," and after the rape they will normalise it . The fact there are often no consequences after will be justification to them. They may perpetrate many sex crimes and the cos will often say there isn't enough evidence. Only if they are reported 4 or 5 times will they statistically start to come to attention.

RAPE IS A RELATIVELY EASY. RIME TO GET AWAY WITH

Now think about it .

This happened to me . All those women saying none of my friends / relatives/ partners would do this , exactly how do you know if they don't see their actions as rape ?

I had a one night stand back in 2015 and what started consensual became something else. That guy left my flat the next day and will have carried on dating , maybe now in a full relationship or married . He tried to go from vaginal to anal sex without asking and pretending not to know what he'd done . It hurt me . I told him what he was doing and he laughed and said sorry .

He might never display that behaviour again. No one would think twice .
And he would deny and refute it if I'd reported it. A mistake he'd say no doubt .

My point is men in cat 4 do not see themselves as rapists so many many men have acted this way then justified it and shaken it off , never to surface again

I tried dating from mid 40s to 50 and the behaviour of men in that category was abhorrent. They clearly had no concept of consent or want that means .

There are many more rapists out there than women think . And until you're the victim , you wouldn't know .

Russell brand has refuted the claims of his accusers . He doesn't see himself as a rapist . He is the majority of men in cat 4 .

The Ched Evans case, absolutely beggars belief.

There was a survey which asked men would they rape if they were guaranteed to get away with no consequences. The percentage that said yes was alarmingly high.

My daughter was raped. She was abducted by a taxi driver. She was drunk. She was lucky to survive. They wouldn’t prosecute. Rape apparently isn’t a crime. I am heartbroken. But she is a brilliant survivor.

The compensatory rapist. Never uses violence
Rape IS an act of violence, so every rapist is violent
maybe some rapists are manipulative enough to force the victim to submit without putting up a fight , such as blackmail, threats, or perhaps the victim may just be a vulnerable person so cant fight back but that is not the same as non violence.

Rapists are just people so they're not just going to fit neatly into any of those 4 categories,
rapists are capable of being any one of those categories, they've already crossed that line, so nothing is off limits to them

one thing that we do know for certain is that all rapists have low empathy or completely lack it

Rape,is a crime that's easy to get away with . Statistically. Sadly .

Yes - its sad. :-(

I respect greatly how she has dealt and got beyond it.

It makes a lot of sense to think that the majority of rapes are done by men who would not consider themselves as rapists or what they do as rape. I remember reading a study with convicted rapists which said that they were perfectly aware of what rape was, but even when what they did fit those descriptions, they were adamant that they were not rapists and had done all kinds of mental gymnastics to explain why. There cant be a small number of men committing all the rapes and sexual assaults that happen in the world - with the number of women experiencing this, there has to be almost a corresponding number of men perpetrating it, right?

I think a lot of men who have lots of casual sex fall into category 4 that you mention. I think that you can see an emergence of those behaviours when they are manipulating women into having sex with them, not all- but many will use coercion to get what they want from younger and more vulnerable women...they won't see it as they've coerced someone into sex with them, and I think when they have got used to being able to use women in that way, it's that much easier to fully go into the entitled viewpoint of, they wanted it really.
I believe that was the viewpoint of the man who raped me when I was 16. When he finished, he told me if I told anyone that he would come after me. If people knew we had slept together he would get grief because of my age... not because he ignored it when I told him no repeatedly. Not because he viewed the sex as non consensual.

I don't think it's all men, or even most men, but I do believe that the subset of men who are rapists and abusers are more than the general population realises. None of us want to believe that our husbands, sons, brothers, fathers or friends would do this, but these men who are convicted (which is rare in rape cases) are not sisterless, motherless, daughterless men.
The man who raped me acted as protector to his sister, and her friends from scumbag men. I'm sure his mum thought he was incapable of what he had done to me.

EMINENT?.. Funnily enough...you didnt as much as mention THAT as a catagory.
as non-debateable...i'm refering to-Jimmy Saville, =eminent.
You also missed "privilidge exempt,i was at pizza hut- sex OFFENding ,public denial,huge big massive payout-non prosecuteable beasts.
Great big massive also omitted enabled rapists.
Known,heavily indicating repeat behaviours that are disregarded\covered up\tolerated.
THEN...you also missed "alleged rapists"
Those who are accused of it.
theres absolute loads of them.
the shortest straw=convicted rapists. Given the "spectrum" thats pretty crazy.
am not an expert anything. but there is ONE type of rape victim. (ie NONCONSENSUAL)
regardless of-and i mean no disrespect op- personal experience,perspective,info informed etc -My biggest first query re the investigative research that projected into tv media last satdy eve is- why? IF there is no room for doubt why not take said info to police. IF they dont act appropriately-broadcast that. - is that one who said she handed out phone numbers ..now feels like a pimp. sure-she coulda/shoulda said.nah-im not gony do that.did she?no. ...ya can lead a horse to water...but ...make the call was a choice.All the allegaations were from former partners. NOT random pickups. the account given was regular distraught he promised me he would call. being a cnut is not criminal.
regret is not criminal. a investigative documentary is not a guarantee of guilt.
I honestly do not see how\what benefit the show has had that benefits the alleged vics. or will result in any thing beneficial to actual definate victims.

What about marital rapists ? I'd say they come from a sense of ownership/entitlement .

@bemorebernard Thanks for posting this topic, when all this stuff in the media has doubtless brought out older memories for many posts, some on this thread, many on other threads.

I'd love to ask you some questions, but it is no problem if you don't want to answer :)

1. What made you think about doing such training/course?
2. Based on what happened to you, the course must be been stressful to attend? Are you still happy you did the training, or would you now have preferred not to have done it?
3. Do you think it helped you better process what happened to you?

I'm asking, because I'm also going through some issues myself, and ended up reading in this general area (the typology material mentioned earlier)

This sounds concise and clear. ^

I think there are far more rapists and would be rapists among us than we realise. It’s so hard to determine any exacting numbers given the sheer amount of rapes and sexual assaults that go unreported and unmentioned to anyone at all. I know I didn’t report mine, as is the case for so many.

In my experience there are men who use their physicality to throw their weight around…you know the type, ego, macho…can be charming but also intimidating and have a kind of quietly (or perhaps not so quiet) threatening air about them. They may never directly threaten you, but somehow you automatically know there will be consequences that are not good for you. Then there are those who don’t use their physicality but instead insidiously coerce and control, sulk and tantrum to get what they want, and then there are those who will use both methods.

How many of us have known a man we thought to be decent and kind and didn’t think he was ‘like that’ only to find out that when the mood or the opportunity struck they made some kind of lewd comment or sleazy pass at you, took advantage or assaulted/raped you. So many women in this scenario blame themselves for not seeing it, for being naive or letting their guard down….but of course they are not to blame, not one bit. How many men in this same scenario see themselves as sleazy, or as having committed sexual harassment/assault or rape….I just don’t think that the majority do see it, there is some serious dissociation going on. It’s the same way with men who are abusive, they never really think they are abusive (and even if they do it’s all it was her fault, she pushed me, made me do it etc) how many of them think that just because they don’t raise a hand or a fist that everything is just fine and dandy. Never never underestimate a man’s ability to dig his head so far down in the sand that he is blind to his own actions and behaviour and how they effect others.

It is not enough to think that just because you didn’t or wouldn’t grab a random woman off the street drag her into the bushes or down an alley and force yourself upon her that you are not a rapist….and I think for the most part when people think of rape this is the first scenario to comes to mind (unless you have experienced otherwise) yet it’s the rarest form of rape (I think) but it’s somehow the one that we all most clearly define as rape…because there is no grey area. The majority of rapes and those that go unreported and unmentioned are those that do happen inside the grey area and that’s the whole problem right there, is the grey area where a man can tell himself he’s not a rapist, and a woman who worries if she will be believed, who feels the hurt, pain, shame and guilt at what has happened while the man carries on as if nothing ever happened. It’s bloody sickening, it really is.

There is so so much gaslighting around rape, and the shockingly low conviction rates are abhorrent. Victims being blamed for ruining a mans life, whilst having their own life dragged up in court (if it even makes it that far) and the disgusting questioning of how they themselves may be responsible for the assault is just utterly vile and beyond contempt. I understand why the bar for conviction must be high, but why is the bar for how victims are treated so very low. The sheer amount of trauma that must bring on top of the assault itself must be absolutely horrific.

We are on an uphill battle with this, education around consent and enthusiastic consent definitely helps but with the vast consumption of porn and it’s depiction of non consensual sex, coercive sex and sexual violence working against all of that how much progress can ever really be made!

What I do know is that the wheels of change turn far too slowly for us all, but especially for those that have suffered and for those who will suffer in the future.

The title literally has the word ‘rape’ in it. If you’re clicking on the thread then you know what it’s about. No need to put a trigger warning, people just need to use their common sense

Only if you don't call it rape though:

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2911493/Shocking-survey-finds-male-university-students-rape-woman-away-it.html

It says rape in the title. Surely that should suffice?

Jesus Christ it's for rape and myths in the title - if you're averse to the word rape don't click ?

I feel like this has been a useful discussion. No one has to click .

Even though the Groth material is older, it (or a modified version of it) is still widely used as a reference in police training and practice. For example in the commonly used textbook by Hazelwood (PRACTICAL ASPECTS OF RAPE INVESTIGATION).

I've seen it only used in context of "Stranger Rape", not the RB type of allegations. It's meant to be a "starting point" not cookie-cutter approach. It's has also been used a guide for interviews, collecting information about behaviour, case linkage while looking for offender patterns and so on.

There are still a lot of common myths with respect to sex crimes, and many deeply embedded in our society. Thanks to the OP for raising this topic. It's not something I've seen discussed much on MN.

How many of us have known a man we thought to be decent and kind and didn’t think he was ‘like that’ only to find out that when the mood or the opportunity struck they made some kind of lewd comment or sleazy pass at you, took advantage or assaulted/raped you.

@Lillygolightly that's a really important point. Some of those sleazy comments are designed to see how far they can push things. It makes me wonder how close I could have been at times, if I had been more nice or less sober.

Brand isn't category 4 - did you see the part about the spit? Bleurgh.

Does category 4 include stealthing/not wearing a condom?
RB allegedly did not use condom with Alice or Nadia.
It's a shame that the case against Julian Assange was dropped as the more publicity this area of rape (consent withdrawn when condom removed or not worn) gets, the better.

I think a huge majority of rapes are domestic related- weather it be familial abuse or domestic violence between partners

A staggering correlation between sex offenders and being children who have been bought up in domestically abusive house holds is not talked about enough

I think rb wore a condom is asked , thigh made it clear he didn't like it

Yes stealthing would be car 4 - dont see their actions as rape