To try and dispel some rape myths since we're all talking about it ?

[bemorebernard]

I did some training with one of rape crisis most eminent psychologists.

There are 4 categories of rapist

1. sadistic rapist - the Fred west type , they get off on humiliation, terror , violence , they get salacious pleasure from causing pain . Very rare .

2. angry rapist - the frenzied attacker . Think the Yorkshire ripper . Most likely to come to police attention.

3. the opportunist rapist - they will use violence as a means to and end . But they don't get off on the violence , it's a way to get the sex they want .

4. now this is important so listen up
   The compensatory rapist. Never uses violence .the most complex and clever . The most difficult to investigate. THEY DO MOT SEE THEMSELVES AS RAPISTS. They utilise distorted thinking to justify their actions. "Women like it , when they say no they mean yes , men are t mind readers ," and after the rape they will normalise it . The fact there are often no consequences after will be justification to them. They may perpetrate many sex crimes and the cos will often say there isn't enough evidence. Only if they are reported 4 or 5 times will they statistically start to come to attention.

RAPE IS A RELATIVELY EASY. RIME TO GET AWAY WITH

Now think about it .

This happened to me . All those women saying none of my friends / relatives/ partners would do this , exactly how do you know if they don't see their actions as rape ?

I had a one night stand back in 2015 and what started consensual became something else. That guy left my flat the next day and will have carried on dating , maybe now in a full relationship or married . He tried to go from vaginal to anal sex without asking and pretending not to know what he'd done . It hurt me . I told him what he was doing and he laughed and said sorry .

He might never display that behaviour again. No one would think twice .
And he would deny and refute it if I'd reported it. A mistake he'd say no doubt .

My point is men in cat 4 do not see themselves as rapists so many many men have acted this way then justified it and shaken it off , never to surface again

I tried dating from mid 40s to 50 and the behaviour of men in that category was abhorrent. They clearly had no concept of consent or want that means .

There are many more rapists out there than women think . And until you're the victim , you wouldn't know .

Russell brand has refuted the claims of his accusers . He doesn't see himself as a rapist . He is the majority of men in cat 4 .

The model this psychologist has explained to you is based on a model proposed by Groth in 1979. It’s outdated and crude and not useful.

I've re read the OP a couple if times now. Can someone highlight the bit where she says all men are rapists please?

Also in the cat 4 are the opportunists, the ones that think it’s ok to have sec with barely sober people or those asleep or those who won’t even remember . Also do not see themselves as rapists

I think the phrase 'consensual relationship' is unhelpful as every single time you have sex needs to be consensual.

It reinforces the idea that if you consented to sex in the past with someone, it can't be rape in the future.

There's a couple more categories, statutory rape, the person was under 16 - they may have consented but the law says that they cannot consent, it's a bit of a grey area because the cps take into account the age difference and potential grooming but they need discretion because not everything is black and white. Finally there's where one party is too intoxicated to know what they are doing, they may say yes but they cannot consent due to their state, again a tricky one with grey areas (especially when both parties are drunk for instance) I really don't envy the cps on these.

Anyone who says there's no grey areas is being naive, it's very complex. I'm incredibly supportive of those who manage to come forward (often there's a pattern of escalating behaviour) but also know someone who was on the other side, (in his case the female lied about her age and had fake ID, was in an over 18's venue, it was dropped).

I can sort of see what you mean with cat 4. Coercive / abusive partners probably also don’t think they’re rapists. Heck it used to be legal to rape your wife.

RB (allegedly)probably thought who he was (his fame/ status) would be enough for the girls and women. Maybe it was about his ego not their consent/otherwise, - why would they not want him to do these things?! Remember when the BNP leader at one time said rape is like force-feeding chocolate cake? They live among us and sometimes are stupid enough to say these things out loud and are given a platform to do so by the media.

OP, sorry to hear about your awful experience. It seems like you found the talk helpful and insightful. It's a complex topic, i.e., what motivations people to do what they do.

As @jazzyfips said the text reads like a "tweaked" version on the Roth typology. Working in the legal area, I would agree it's outdated and crude, but not useless. It's still widely referenced, and a good/easy starting point for people (police, legal) to at least acknowledge there are broadly different (but overlapping) typologies. I remember when the MTC:R3 classification system, based on a lot of data (for the time) was just so complex. And since then lots of more models, from many different perspectives.

Groth also remains an important reference for those that believe rape is nothing/little to do with sex (of course that's the case for the victim).

Powerful post OP. I believe you.

Maybe it is now seen as crude and outdated but it provided me with an insight I didn't previously have.

Some training is better than no training imo.

Those saying the majority of men are decent , I'm sure they are but I'm also pretty sure anyone going on to have a relationship with my attacker would think he was decent , on the face of it he was . He may have decided that since it was a one night stand he could afford to try it and see if I said no or yes , I'm sure if he wasn't on to have a meaningful relationship he wouldn't do that

You cannot simply say of all the men you know you can know how,they have tested other women in the past . Your experience is yours only . That's my point .

*went in to have meaningful relationships

I don't believe that these men you describe don't think they've done anything wrong, they just don't care. Or perhaps they do care after the event, but it's easier to bury their head in the sand than admit they raped someone. Otherwise what's to stop them doing it to their wives? You are right in saying that no one ever truly knows somebody, but of course people will stand by their loved ones.

This thread has got me thinking, why don't we have different degrees of rape like we do with murder? Might make it easier to convict those in category 4 as you describe.

Sorry you went through that. I agree you can’t tell who will be a rapist. I think some people have misinterpreted your post.

I'm.not sure what's the bigger problem. Men who don't realise they are rapists. Or women who don't realise that the behaviour they have experienced is potentially rape.

I'm thinking of women who are intoxicated to be able to legitimatly consent. Those who accept it as an " accident " when the man accidently on purpose " slips" and attempts anal. Who dont realise that there's actually a name for that thing some men do of removing the condom without you realising. Aka Stealthily. Or have paid money for the sex.

I'm sick of hearing men talk crap about how they are frightened of talking to or touching women and constantly having to check everything is OK still as they don't want to be accused of being a rapist/abuser as if its difficult to tell if a woman is actually into it or is saying no and how actually they are the victim of this whole #metoo thing 🙄

Stealthing

Bloody auto correct

That happened to me.

Me too.

I think more women than imaginable have been through these scenarios. Not sure if ignorance really is bliss or not here really...

Makes the poor conviction rate even more disturbing

Name changed. Can this be an assault?
2001.
Women and man, both 21 and just friends go out clubbing. Woman gets very drunk as she’s consoling herself over a relationship ending. Man stays sober. Drives her home blind drunk. Man helps her to bed (she lives in a uni, so just a room). Then removes her clothes and has sex with her.
Woman doesn’t want to, but says nothing. She’s too drunk, feels sick. The room is spinning. He leaves after. Woman falls asleep. It is never mentioned again. Friendship distances immediately and the two rarely see each other. Woman feels responsible. She let this happen. Never tells a soul.

This is definitely rape. Even though she didn’t say anything, he did not have consent and, if she was that drunk, she couldn’t consent.

Ok, thank you.

Yes , no informed consent . He took advantage of a women who couldn't consent due to being drunk.
If you can't consent it's rape .
I've ended a friendship after he told me he was in an open relationship and coerced and pressed me into sex to then sit and say how guilty he felt , and I realised it wasn't an open relationship at all. He just took advantage because he could . He would be seen as a nice bloke . Clearly he was never gonna tell his partner .

I tried dating and most of the men I dated were just deplorable sleazes . None came across that way initially .

I've now decided to remain single.

I reckon the name changers scenario is more common than we realise . Would that guy categorise himself as a rapist ? Nope

This is my point . More men than we realise behave like this and just move on .

And yet still somehow more effort is made to exclude certain criterias /situations from being able to he considered rape/assault and defending men and finding ways things can be misunderstandings than into calling out their so called mates/fathers/sons etc as rapists.

And the anger is directed at women who mention men in a negative way. Immediately with the NAMALT. The anger should be directed at the men who give men a bad name.

On the same training day I did about victim guilt . Also a thing . The way women who do report are treated is so wrong
The training I do was to do with my area of work and yet I wouldn't have reported my rape .

@bemorebernard your comment of “behave like this and just move on” fully resonates with me. I’ve seen that in so many cases. These people move on, have lives, partners, families, etc. I can honestly say I’ve NEVER seen remorse, other being sorry a report was made. The support they get from family and partners is something mind boggling.

I’m in awe of the people (mostly women) who go through the reporting system. I’ve met some incredible people.