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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think this can be achieved in early years childcare?

54 replies

InThePurpleHaze · 21/09/2023 22:08

Lots of proposals in place such as offering workers the chance to gain a qualification to level 3 standard by experience which can be done on the job, Removing ratios at certain quiet times and reducing the number of level 2 workers needed. I also think the government are hoping to increase pay for all workers.
Aibu to feel optimistic that these changes will make a positive difference?

OP posts:
TheLostNights · 21/09/2023 22:26

Nope. Pie in the sky.

63WarwickAvenue · 22/09/2023 05:06

Do you have a link, OP, as I've not heard anything about it.

I'd be amazed if the government really wanted to raise pay for Early Years staff - didn't they promise that a long time ago when Early Years Professional Status was brought in. Look how well that turned out ...

Clariee45 · 22/09/2023 05:56

Totally disagree on messing with ratios, I would if thought staff really need the quieter times for preparing activities, catching up on things etc.

Bearbookagainandagain · 22/09/2023 06:54

So basically you mean... untrained staff and 0 hours contracts?
Because I'm not sure you are supposed to achieve "lower ratios at quiet times" without having staff only working for 2-3h blocks.

Nope, not sure I would see this as an improvement really...

oobladay · 22/09/2023 06:58

Do you work in the sector OP? Because the vast majority of Early Years practitioners that I've heard from across the country think very differently.

From my perspective I don't see how these proposals would make a positive difference at all. How can potential level 3 trainees be effectively supported to learn on the job if we're reducing ratios? Or are we just going to say, "well, you've been here 6 months now...?" Who's assessing their knowledge, and how? There's already huge drives to reduce practitioners paperwork responsibilities because it takes them away from their time with the children - as reflected in the recent changes to the eyfs framework and supporting documents. Shall we just give them more to do in a different area instead?

Also, when are these quiet times?! Most settings already reduce at certain points in the day, hence different shifts, but do the children staying after 4pm for example not have the same level of need once the clock hits a certain point? Do we care less about their well being and safeguarding during these 'off peak' times? Yes of course at after school clubs and wraparound care companies can operate on different ratios, but they're not looking after 2 year olds.

Why are we having less level 2 qualified staff and who are we replacing these with?

Why are we reducing ratios when settings across the uk are struggling to recruit and retain staff? Or are we proposing to reduce because of this? Better move those goalposts to fit. Those I've know personally who've left the sector have done so because of how challenging the job is when fully staffed. Increasing work load and responsibilities isn't going to help. It'll maybe slow down the closure of settings because the legalities have changed. But who's going to want their child looked after in those circumstances? Less staff, who are more stretched. And who wants to work like that when you have little people to think about at the centre of it all?

The Early Years has changed dramatically over the last decade. Children need more support than ever before in a wide range of areas. Blame covid, screen time, parents working full time or whatever factor is in fashion this week. Children's development and behaviour is overall incredibly different from even 5 years ago. Many settings are also seeing a huge increase in numbers with sen. And alongside this, we are experiencing huge delays and waiting lists when accessing outside services. And guess who's responsible for filling this gap? Taking extra training, running more and more La directed intervention groups etc? Not that I mind - love that aspect of the job, but on top of everything else the pressure is huge.

This is for many children their first experience of being away from their families and their first steps into education. They deserve to have the best, and as a country we are not doing this very well.

The government love to have their say in all things childcare don't they, while simultaneously under funding every funded child's place - and let's not talk about sen budgets. I can't see how they will ensure pay rises universally when a large majority of settings are PVI. They've already shown that they are not willing to look at existing pay scales re early years teacher status though maybe they will introduce something or similar for La run settings.

oobladay · 22/09/2023 07:03

I'm sorry I cut myself off - probably good timing 🤣 but suffice to say that no, I don't think these proposed changes are in the best interest of the children or the sector. Though I won't say no to better pay 😂

Change can be good, and is well needed. But only if for the better.

Tanith · 22/09/2023 08:56
  1. Fund Early Years adequately
  2. Reform or, better still, replace Ofsted

Then we can start talking about positive differences.

Mammyloveswine · 22/09/2023 09:52

Bearbookagainandagain · 22/09/2023 06:54

So basically you mean... untrained staff and 0 hours contracts?
Because I'm not sure you are supposed to achieve "lower ratios at quiet times" without having staff only working for 2-3h blocks.

Nope, not sure I would see this as an improvement really...

This!!

InThePurpleHaze · 22/09/2023 13:50

I have a friend who is a nursery manager but haven't spoken much about it with her. These are my own opinions.
I know her and other managers have all increased their ratios to more children in the 2 year old room. Many thought there would be a lot of nurseries that would not do this but most are.
In terms of the quieter times in nursery where they don't have to adher to ratio, I meant the 7.30-8.00 or 5PM-6PM. Makes sense when not many, it's in.
I do think they can increase staff pay somehow and that will encourage morale and recruitment.

OP posts:
Hardbackwriter · 22/09/2023 14:04

In terms of the quieter times in nursery where they don't have to adher to ratio, I meant the 7.30-8.00 or 5PM-6PM. Makes sense when not many, it's in.

This makes no sense. The whole point of a ratio is that it means you need fewer staff when you have fewer children, and more staff for more children. Why would you then stop bothering with that once the numbers got below a certain level? Does that mean that if you're a small setting you never have to bother with ratios - you're always quiet compared to a big setting?

Hardbackwriter · 22/09/2023 14:07

I think these ideas are appalling and I would bet my actual house that reducing the qualification level and number of staff required won't result in raised wages. It will clearly reduce pressure to increase wages by reducing the under supply of staff. Again, this is just an absolute nonsense that makes no sense logically and goes against all experience.

InThePurpleHaze · 22/09/2023 18:33

I think it will provide more flexibility for nurseries and will mean more nurseries can stay open as not tied to needing a certain level of qualified staff.

OP posts:
Tanith · 22/09/2023 18:47

It will just increase profits for the shareholders, as I’m sure you very well know.

TheLightProgramme · 22/09/2023 18:51

I wouldn't want any more kids per adult than there are now.

The best to improve pay and working conditions in childcare without reducing quality for children, is to encourage childminding from family homes.

By stripping out costs for management, premises, furniture etc, plus the borrowing costs to acquire these things, the return to the individual childcare worker is far better, and for many children a home environment is better for them.

TheLightProgramme · 22/09/2023 18:53

think it will provide more flexibility for nurseries and will mean more nurseries can stay open as not tied to needing a certain level of qualified staff.

Nursery chains are already terrible for hiring a lot of teenagers who are cheaper due to the lower minimum wage. This would make it worse and the quality of care would be abysmal.

Its a terrible idea. Good quality qualified staff are the only reason group care doesn't routinely fuck up children.

InThePurpleHaze · 22/09/2023 22:19

Many unqualified staff are just as good with children as qualified.

OP posts:
YetMoreNewBeginnings · 22/09/2023 22:22

If the changes were going to be good the childcare sector would be saying so. Yet the childcare sector is saying that the changes are negative and nurseries are closing in droves. Nothing positive in that.

YetMoreNewBeginnings · 22/09/2023 22:24

I think it says a lot about us as a people generally that we pay the people who look after children and the elderly the least and measures to bring in more unqualified, low paid staff in the childcare sector is something some people see as a positive.

Notagains · 22/09/2023 22:39

I don't see how increasing ratios and allowing unqualified staff looking after very young children can be positive.

KateyCuckoo · 23/09/2023 05:16

The only reason they changed the 2 year old ratio this September was so they could get sway with paying less for the new funded hours proposed.

More work for the same pay....

Mysterian · 23/09/2023 05:39

Easy qualification = lower quality.
Removing ratios = lower quality.
Reducing levels of staff needed = lower quality.
Increase pay = Raise quality.

It' funny but I can only see 3 of those things actually happening.

InThePurpleHaze · 23/09/2023 12:41

I do think pay will be increased

OP posts:
KateyCuckoo · 23/09/2023 12:46

InThePurpleHaze · 23/09/2023 12:41

I do think pay will be increased

What makes you think it will?

InThePurpleHaze · 23/09/2023 12:56

It's in the government consultations

OP posts:
Belltentdreamer · 23/09/2023 12:59

LOL as if the government will do anything to benefit childcare workers. They make shit policies and schemes that don’t work financially for settings then call it free childcare and pass the buck over to childcare workers to make them look in the wrong.

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