to wonder if a conversation is needed about "staggering" the age of consent

[Servalan]

Apologies if there is already a thread dealing with this - I've looked but couldn't find anything.

I listened to Women's Hour earlier where "Alice" (the woman who was allegedly raped by Russell Brand at the age of 16) was being interviewed.

At the time, she was in a "relationship" with him - she was 16, he was 31. She was talking about the power imbalance, how she didn't have the tools to advocate for herself or really understand what was happening to her.

Now, obviously, forced oral sex is rape and is illegal.

What I'm wondering about is whether a consentual sexual relationship (which "Alice" thought she was in with Brand up until the rape) between a 31 and a 16 year old should be legal.

The ages of 16 and 17 are not seen as being an adult in the eyes of the law, yet the age of consent laws mean that a much older adult can have consentual sex with a 16 or 17 year old child.

Seeing conversations on here about age gap relationships where the youngest person is 16 or 17, there is disapproval and distaste expressed - so it's frowned upon but it's not illegal.

I come from a generation where at the age of 16, I had friends in relationships with adults in their late 20s and no one batted an eyelid, but I think it was (to use a cliche) "different times". Childline was founded when I was in my mid teens and before that, in my personal experience, people didn't really talk about child abuse much - it existed of course, but was swept under the carpet. Over the years I have seen a massive shift in how the nuances and power balances in this type of age gap relationship are discussed.

Now I have a 17 year old DD I see things VERY differently to how I did when I was younger. I think a lot of us do.

The reason I'm wondering about a "staggered" age of consent is that it is normal and healthy for 16 year olds to be having sexual relationships with people within their peer group - but wondering if there is a way to safeguard from predatory older people.

"Mature for their age" when there is a significant age gap is often bordering on rape apologist.

Well said

I think the age should be raised to 18.

But if both are aged 16/17 then that's fine.

Surely, no decent grown man aged 21+ would want to have sex with a 16/17 year old.

well, that's not quite how I meant it, if you mean pointing out the demographic of mumsnet.

All this 'oooh make them wait til 18' isn't said by 18 year olds, is it?

And if you want to know more about the libido of middle aged women who post on mumsnet, take a look on relationships where there are plenty who stopped having sex altogether and think it's completely normal. Not all, but all the ones on this thread? Possibly!

Now imagine why they might be posting about restricting the sex lives of 16 year olds.

Old enough to join the army. Old enough to get married (until earlier this year in fact). Not old enough to have sex. Makes total sense.

Actually, I would really question that. If their live is so pure and deep, surely waiting until the younger party is 18 won’t make a difference?

Oh is sex only okay if it's accompanied by a pure deep love?

I missed that religious class

Not sure you meant to quote me or someone else @WelcomeToLagos? Pure and deep huh?

No, I wouldn't change it.

Instead, I'd consider the role of social disapproval (of men who go after young girls). In recent years, people have become so wary of expressing disapproval about the behaviour of others. We seem to have absorbed the idea that 'we mustn't judge or shame anyone', even if their behaviour clearly isn't right.

I want people to feel comfortable again expressing disapproval of whatever they think is wrong. Why? Because this is a healthy social mechanism that helps to protect people, especially girls.

There is always such a rush to legislate for everything, as if declaring 'this is banned' actually changes anything. It doesn't, not least because offences aren't prosecuted. And I wouldn't want mature 16-year-olds to be banned from expressing natural human behaviour, that they're ready for.

No, my comment was in reply to Not All Age Gap Relationships are abusive.

I think if one party is 16/17, then yes it is much more likely that it will be abusive- predicated on the younger party being more naive to the realities of the world. Like the reality of “why is it that this adult doesn’t want a relationship with someone their own age”.

Now that, I would totally agree with.

Yes there should be a legal age to protect genuine victims but who decides what is allowed when in some cases there could be a 16 year old more mature then their 18 year old partner from example

In canada they have done this. And there is a law in place under the sexual exploitation law that covers the age of consent if someone is in a position of power

When someone is 16 years old they are able to consent to sexual activity with a person who is 14 or older. The only exception would be when the older person is in a position of power, trust, or authority (see Sexual Exploitation Laws for detail).

Close-in-age exemption
Applies only to people who are 14 & 15 years old. When someone is 14 or 15 they are able to consent to sexual activity with a person who is LESS than 5 years older than them.

14-years-old
Can consent to sexual activity with someone up to the age of 18.
15-years-old
Can consent to sexual activity with someone up to the age of 19.

Peer experimentation exemption
Applies only to people who are 12 & 13 years old. When someone is 12 or 13 they are able to consent to sexual activity with a person who is LESS than 2 years older than them.

12-years-old
Can consent to sexual activity with someone up to the age of 13.
13-years-old
Can consent to sexual activity with someone up to the age of 14.

Sexual exploitation laws
Sexual contact involving persons under 18 may only happen between individuals with whom there is no relationship of power, trust, authority or dependency.

Sexual contact involving persons under 18 must be in relationships that are non-exploitive. “Exploitation” depends on how the relationship developed, how the partner may have controlled or influenced the young person, or if it involved luring over the internet, prostitution or pornography.

@tellmewhenthespaceshiplandscoz

I’m sorry that must have been so isolating. I didn’t tell anyone either, and still don’t talk about it. I think that’s the other thing about these kinds of relationships - the young party is much more likely to keep quiet for a variety of reasons.

This.

My DM was 16 and ended up in a relationship with a 36 year old man. It was a deeply abusive relationship and TBH I would expect most relationships between an adult man and a girl would be because they've sought out someone with little experience of the world and very little power.

I've come across this after a quick Google search probably having read the same article as you and no, I do not think you're being unreasonable here. Speaking from experience the power imbalance is REAL. I was 17 and utterly convinced I had chased a 37 year old man, hell, I even travelled 1hr 45 mins on the train. I fell pregnant, moved counties away from everyone I loved and knew and spent sevens years in a manipulative coercive environment. Over the years I've told myself I asked for it. I chased him, I went there, and my boy, I stayed. But after many hours of therapy and AWFUL realisations I cannot understand how what he did was legal. Reading over the messages, remembering what was said and how it was said. A 37 year old man should NOT be allowed to sleep with a 17 year old. If people don't agree, that's fine but that my very personal take on the matter. The bottom line is what does any man above the age of 23? Ish want with a 16/17 year old.

No it’s not.

Laws are changing on age of marriage to 18.
You can’t vote until you’re 18
You are supposed to be in education until 18
You can’t drink until 18.

The age of consent was set up years ago. By men.

Sone 16 year olds are mature and some are very young. The very young ones will be more mature at 18

That's a bit like saying you'd rather someone learn how to defend themselves in case of attack than introduce legislation that deters those attacks in the first place. A combination of the two is required not one or the other

Edited to say I don't think it's tagged the person I'm replying to! This is not to OP

I also think the age of consent should be raised to 18. 16/17 year olds don't need to be having sex, they really don't.

I find some people's attitudes on here so blasé about their 15/16 year olds having sex, getting hammered, not having consequences etc.

I was up to all sorts at that age and younger. It really wasn't a good thing.

It's not being blase about it.

It's thinking that it's wrong for two teenagers to be criminalised for it.

And would a law have stopped you?

I think Canada has it about right with their laws re this. Teens will experiment and have sex. I was at from 14. Im from a good home and was an honour roll student. (In case someone is going to punce on the socio-economics of my up bringing)My parents or a law wouldn't have stopped me.

My parents were far from blasé about it. But, they were realistic ( my dad is from strict Caribbean background) my mom got me on the pill, made an appt with the gp to talk about safe sex and limits (boundaries in now a day speak) , took me and gave me the information I needed to access sexual health clinics. Spoke to me about consent. My dad unsurprisingly didn't want to know. But, what he made sure I knew was that whatever time, wherever I was and whatever the situation if I needed out to call him and he would come get me.

This helped formed a good foundation for me around consent and boundaries. What was and was not acceptable. It also made it easy for me to approach them if I ever needed to.

We need more of this. We don't need laws making sex illegal for teens. There needs to be amendments to stop power dynamics and sexual exploitation. There also should be more education available to teenagers both from school and home around sex and sexual health.

@bellac11

There can be quite a big gap in life experience between 17 and 19, even though it's only 2 years. I turned 17 when I was in my first year of 6th form, still living at home, still at school. At 19 I was in second year of uni, living independently in a city hundreds of miles away from home. Big difference.
I did actually date a 19 year old when I was 17 and I can see now that it was all kinds of wrong, he was manipulative and abusive, but I overlooked it because I felt grown up going out with him.
I would support a law stating that anyone over 18 isn't allowed to date or have sex with anyone under 18. Nobody needs to be doing this, it's not like there's a shortage of over 18s to date.

Law changed in 2023 for marriage in England and Wales to 18

So you would have Scottish and N. Irish people married at 16 and waiting til 18 for sex. Great idea.

Can vote in Scotland at 16

Can work full time at 16 (in England you need to continue with part time education alongside this)

Can leave school at 16

Can join armed forces at 16

No idea what the connection is to laws being made by men or women. Of course, the law until really quite recently set a higher age limit for male homosexuality. 21 then lowered to 18.

I think it should be legal at 16 with someone under 18, and all others 18.

I am also of an age where age-gaps were frowned upon by adults, but amongst peers, well if your bf was over 30 you were likely to be seen by other girls with a degree of awe. A certain amount of secrecy was required as parents definitely wouldn't like it, and teachers/other adults would tell parents. The girls themselves were pretty happy with their relationship. Maybe there was a power imbalance, but maybe the man didn't take advantage of it. I know one girl married her older bf and lived happily ever after - she was in my class, was a friend, I'm still in touch on fb, so not close friends, but she remained married to him until he died recently and she is in mourning for him now. They had children and grandchildren. From the small window I have into their lives he was a good man, good husband and father, and missed by all. He was nearly 25 years older than her.

In my family there are always a few girls of about 16 who get together with a man in their early 30s. I was one, not to the extent that we were together for long, a couple of months and then I dumped him for no reason other than it was getting too serious. In the next generation I know of 3 young women whose first serious, really serious relationship, was with much older men. Two of those girls went and lived with their bfs for several years and one (dd) remained committed to her bf for a similar length of time, but remained basically living with us. He was a nice guy who adored her, treated her well. He spent most of his free time over here with us so we knew him quite well. The school were very concerned but handled it really badly.

In dd's case, I can say that the person with the most power was actually dd.

Predatory men are predatory men, no matter anything else.

I do think that many girls who have older bfs benefit hugely from that relationship. They learn, among other things, what being treated properly in a grown up relationship feels like, what they can expect from the guys around them. Ime most of these girls grow out of their older lovers and leave them behind, knowing much more about what they want from a relationsip and what they don't. And don't pretend that learning about sex from a good man with experience is a bad thing, it really really isn't, it's just different from random fumbles behind the bike shed, trying to meet somewhere private in secret behind parents' backs etc.

If you are deemed old enough to make the decision to have sex at age 16 then you're old enough to decide who to have sex with.

Frankly, I don't know, have never known, a 16 year old who didn't know jolly well what a date with a megastar type would involve, and would either go into it willingly for as long as it lasted or put guardsinto place before going. If she'd taken a friend with her that first time she was picked up (that's how we did it), for instance, she'd have been in a much better position. Believe me, I've been there and done that.

Problem is @Jux , this thread is full of posters speaking about their horrible exploitative experiences with older men. There don't seem to be any posters saying how beautifully they were treated by these old pervs, and gushing about how generously they were educated by them in the ways of the world (granted, there are a few 'I know someone who...' stories, but that's not really persuasive, as what a relationship looks like from the outside has no bearing on what's really going on).

Also, you're victim-blaming by saying she knew what she was getting into.