to wonder if a conversation is needed about "staggering" the age of consent

[Servalan]

Apologies if there is already a thread dealing with this - I've looked but couldn't find anything.

I listened to Women's Hour earlier where "Alice" (the woman who was allegedly raped by Russell Brand at the age of 16) was being interviewed.

At the time, she was in a "relationship" with him - she was 16, he was 31. She was talking about the power imbalance, how she didn't have the tools to advocate for herself or really understand what was happening to her.

Now, obviously, forced oral sex is rape and is illegal.

What I'm wondering about is whether a consentual sexual relationship (which "Alice" thought she was in with Brand up until the rape) between a 31 and a 16 year old should be legal.

The ages of 16 and 17 are not seen as being an adult in the eyes of the law, yet the age of consent laws mean that a much older adult can have consentual sex with a 16 or 17 year old child.

Seeing conversations on here about age gap relationships where the youngest person is 16 or 17, there is disapproval and distaste expressed - so it's frowned upon but it's not illegal.

I come from a generation where at the age of 16, I had friends in relationships with adults in their late 20s and no one batted an eyelid, but I think it was (to use a cliche) "different times". Childline was founded when I was in my mid teens and before that, in my personal experience, people didn't really talk about child abuse much - it existed of course, but was swept under the carpet. Over the years I have seen a massive shift in how the nuances and power balances in this type of age gap relationship are discussed.

Now I have a 17 year old DD I see things VERY differently to how I did when I was younger. I think a lot of us do.

The reason I'm wondering about a "staggered" age of consent is that it is normal and healthy for 16 year olds to be having sexual relationships with people within their peer group - but wondering if there is a way to safeguard from predatory older people.

Usual MN ageism. How dare anyone old want love, yuk.

I'd favour this change.

This seems like a really sensible idea.

I dated lots of older men when I was 16-20. Some in their 40s. I actually didn't feel like some were predatory or that there was a power imbalance, but some definitely were. Even so it stopped me having normal relationships with people around my age. My first proper boyfriend was 21 when I was 15. Looking back it was awful.

Is there any point in even having an age of consent?

In any threads about underage sex, no one ever mntions the [il]legality of it.

Thing is, while we have freedoms, there will always be those who take advantage. Making the laws more restrictive just takes away the freedoms of young people, unfairly I feel.

Changing the rules isn’t the answer imo, the answer is deterrence: make it easier to report and convict people who abusers, no matter what their age or celebrity status.

Fucking rude about the 80 year-old.
How about inheritance chasing 47 year-old?

He obviously likes them young.. Russell Brands current wife was 19 when they met, he was 32.

I definitely think the age of consent is a conversation that needs to be had. I also think sex education should also include examples of what respect looks.

I think I'm wondering about this more in terms of the message a change in law might give to the older person rather than to the younger person.

No one under 18 should be having sex with people over 18. Simple

I agree that there should be a penalty for all but small age gaps. Also that proving consent should become irrelevant for anyone having sex with someone underage, just the fact that sex took place. So if two people were underage, the police wouldn't get involved unless one complained, or if there was anything to suggest coercion (am thinking of things like county lines, where someone underage is recruited to recruit other kids, that sort of thing). But if one person was over consenting age, and if the gap was more than the equivalent of a school year (to avoid punishing someone just over the aoc), then they'd be prosecuted.

I also agree the aoc should be raised to 18 - it does no one any harm to wait a bit longer to have sex, and it means that 'we can't do it, it's illegal' remains a valid excuse for anyone feeling like they are being pressured into it. 16 is an arbitrary age. Is anyone really mature enough at that age to know what they're getting into?

I'd be interested to know why 16 was selected - I assume it was something to do with school leaving age/age of military service marriage etc at the time the law came into force, rather than chosen on the basis of psychological evidence that the average child of X age is psychologically ready?

Also given that children today seem to be less overall 'mature' at 16 than they would have been historically (other than in the area of sex, where they seem to be - at least superficially - incongruously precocious), I'm surprised that the aoc hasn't been revisited.

Or Dick Van Dyke (97) and Arlene Silver (51). They look happy.

but i completely agree about age gaps when young. A girl i went to college with was 17 and dating a police man well into his 20’s. He had no issue buying her alcohol either…

I was in a relationship with a 25 year old when I was 17. He was a policeman. I thought we were just friends, but he kissed me and I went along with it. I felt so grown up at 17 and was flattered by the attention. Looking back I feel sick. I was a virgin when we met and I shudder when I think of what he took from me, when I was so young and vulnerable. Later on he raped and abused me, except I didn’t recognise what was happening as either of those things because he was a policeman and I naively thought policemen wouldn’t do that! That’s how not grown up I was. I didn’t have a clue. I still feel ashamed.

I completely agree that something should be done to protect young people. I feel so scarred by my experience. This woman’s story has been really triggering for me.

@ConnieTucker for a moment I thought that must’ve been me! I didn’t go to college though.

I come from a generation where at the age of 16, I had friends in relationships with adults in their late 20s and no one batted an eyelid,

I'm curious to know what generation you refer to @Servalan.
I'm 64 and never thought that having a relationship at 16 with someone in their late 20s was OK, and neither did any of my friends.

It would have to be simple, otherwise it would just be too difficult to implement/police.

It should probably be something like:

18+ can have sex with anyone
16/17 can have sex with someone who is a teenager only (ie under 20, but 16+).

I have a 15yo and 17yo and the thought of either of them with a 31yo is shocking.

I'm in my 50s - so younger than you. Honestly, it seemed unusual but not frowned upon at the time. It was generally viewed that the younger party was "mature for their age" (whether or not that was actually the case...!)

at 15/16 I found boys of the same age totally repulsive. At 15 I dated a 20 year old. Nothing about it was grooming. I was over 16 when we first dtd.

I had a 22yo "boyfriend" when I was 14. Obviously my parents hated it, but it got me a lot of kudos at school.

No idea what that was all about tbh, he never tried anything on. We held hands, went to the pictures and had an occasional kiss. 40 years on I often wonder why on earth he was there/ think how lucky I was.

Sorry to hear your story @Japanesebreakfast and that you've been triggered by the recent events. I'm sure on a logical level you know you have nothing to be ashamed of - but just putting it out there again - you have NOTHING to be ashamed of. What happened to you was wrong, unfair and not your fault

Also to anyone else that has been groomed in the past and triggered by all of this.

The trouble is too many people make knee jerk decisions or assumptions

Not all big age gap relationships are abusive or controlling or unhealthy

Someone on the other brand thread started highlighting Johnathon Ross, who married his wife when he was 28 and she 18. They're now in their 60s and 50s respectively with 4 kids and he clearly adores her.

Human realtionships are complicated and dont always run smoothly and people are not always nice to each other.

Thank you @Servalan

I think maybe it should be illegal for anyone over the age of 18 to have sex with anyone under the age of 18.

Isn't this pretty much what we already have with the "young man's defence"?

Well not quite, but the law already recognises the issues of age gaps

I agree, something needs to be put in legislation to let young ones know it is not ok. I was in a similar relationship at 16. At the time I felt so grown up, now looking back it was coercive and completely founded on porn culture. This was mid to late 90s and didn’t seem that unusual at the time.