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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Trial by media circus

644 replies

Maatandosiris · 17/09/2023 09:42

The first thing to say is anyone who has committed rape absolutely needs to be brought to justice. The criminal
justice system needs to become more effective in protecting all victims of crime.

However, AIBU unreasonable to think that this weekends story about RB has been sinister for many other reasons, none of which are to do with RB.

Firstly the SM posts whipping people into a frenzy of some big reveal like some secret album release. Clues planted through various carefully placed posts, giving just enough detail to let people work things out (plus making people suggest other names) . It was an absolute circus, in the case of rape it turned accusations of serious crime into entertainment, no thought how anyone would be affected, whether ultimately guilty or innocent (maybe c4/The Times were trying to get new stories). Extremely bad taste at one end of the spectrum, devastating for innocent people at the other.

The ultimate agenda of both The Sunday Times and C4 is to make money. That’s it, neither is set up as the states arm of justice. There’s no inbuilt checks and balances. Yet somehow they are allowed to name an individual, accuse them of crimes (and effectively say they are guilty) without any of the safeguards and checks and balances of the criminal justice system applying.

People have lost all sense of justice. We have a man accused of something, an hour and a half of heavily hyped TV which holds some accusations but mainly a character assassination, The Sunday Times probably selling many more copies/getting many more subscribers with more of the sane one sided accusations.

Even on Mumsnet we have people already calling him a Rapist, people feeding into the frenzy of “he’s a creep”, “he’s a sex pest” etc etc. in other words, convicting him in their minds before this has gone anywhere near a court or jury.

How will this ever now be a fair trial? How will they find a jury who can 100% not have their views affected by this whole circus? If he is guilty will there ever be a safe conviction, how can we be confident that real justice has been done? What’s the risk of any conviction being overturned? This is not in the interests of either the alleged victim or the alleged perpetrator.

Questions are circulating all over SM as to the agendas at play. It’s fairly clear that the Sunday Times has been searching out victims. What were they saying to these people? What promises have been made?

if a crime has been committed this should be with the criminal justice system not Saturday night prime time TV with an associated heavy advertising campaign.

Im not sure whether RB is guilty or innocent, but that’s not what this post is about. AIBU to think that the way this witch hunt (which is what it is regardless of whether RB sinks or floats) is abhorrent and flies in the face of justice and that this has far wider and scarier implications for society than just this case. Who or what is next?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
9
CorylusAgain · 18/09/2023 16:12

Maatandosiris · 18/09/2023 16:05

The dictionary definition of vigilante

“a member of a group of people who try to prevent crime or punish criminals in their community, especially because they think the police are not doing this” - sounds exactly like what is happing here to me

No.
I say it again. They are putting information into the public domain.

By your interpretation of the definition, safeguarding professionals like social workers would also be vigilantes. Not a common understanding of the term I would suggest

Maatandosiris · 18/09/2023 16:13

Cornettoninja · 18/09/2023 16:11

But the journalists involved in RB’s report haven’t prevented a crime - they’ve reported it. They haven’t punished or encouraged anyone else to dish out punishments either.

what your actually objecting to is people holding information and making ethical judgements using that information. People, all people, have the right to do that. Or do you disagree with that too?

Edited

They have set the ball rolling. This morning the BBC were saying his social media platforms )or income stream) should be removed

OP posts:
Iamnotastick · 18/09/2023 16:15

Maatandosiris · 18/09/2023 16:12

Well when journalists are calling out for the removal
of RBS income sources as happened this morning on the BBC I would say that fits the description.

if your husband pissed off his female boss, she accused him of rape the newspaper ran a story with her saying he was a rapist, it was then all over social media saying he was a rapist? He got sacked, your kids were taunted with shouts, your father is a rapist. Would you be ok with that?

Are you happy with it because you don’t like RB?

This isnt what happened though?

CorylusAgain · 18/09/2023 16:17

if your husband pissed off his female boss, she accused him of rape the newspaper ran a story with her saying he was a rapist, it was then all over social media saying he was a rapist? He got sacked, your kids were taunted with shouts, your father is a rapist. Would you be ok with that?

Are you happy with it because you don’t like RB?

Eh???

DoDoDoD · 18/09/2023 16:18

Maatandosiris · 18/09/2023 16:12

Well when journalists are calling out for the removal
of RBS income sources as happened this morning on the BBC I would say that fits the description.

if your husband pissed off his female boss, she accused him of rape the newspaper ran a story with her saying he was a rapist, it was then all over social media saying he was a rapist? He got sacked, your kids were taunted with shouts, your father is a rapist. Would you be ok with that?

Are you happy with it because you don’t like RB?

if your husband pissed off his female boss, she accused him of rape the newspaper ran a story with her saying he was a rapist, it was then all over social media saying he was a rapist? He got sacked, your kids were taunted with shouts, your father is a rapist. Would you be ok with that?

It's not what's happened here though is it?

TooBigForMyBoots · 18/09/2023 16:18

So you think the women are lying @Maatandosiris?

Cornettoninja · 18/09/2023 16:19

if your husband pissed off his female boss, she accused him of rape the newspaper ran a story with her saying he was a rapist, it was then all over social media saying he was a rapist? He got sacked, your kids were taunted with shouts, your father is a rapist. Would you be ok with that?

depends if he raped her or not? It’s not really a scenario that I’ve come across because it’s very rare for women to use rape allegations in that way. you seem to think that doesn’t require clarifying in your scenario. Is it because of the inherent inclination to think men don’t lie or that police would absolutely 100% deal with it?

(hint - they don’t because they’re exercising reasonable doubt from the minute they’re involved without any direction from a court).

DoDoDoD · 18/09/2023 16:20

Maatandosiris · 18/09/2023 15:27

What is weird and what mixed metaphors? The separation of powers is an integral part of the rule of law!

You are really losing it now...
you said 'the mass media is the new church.' No it isn't!

CorylusAgain · 18/09/2023 16:22

TooBigForMyBoots · 18/09/2023 16:18

So you think the women are lying @Maatandosiris?

@Maatandosiris doesn't want anyone to know what the women are saying until after it's been to trial. @Maatandosiris doesn't care if its true or not. It should not be uttered outside a police interview room unless the report leads to a trial and he is found guilty.

Cornettoninja · 18/09/2023 16:23

Maatandosiris · 18/09/2023 16:13

They have set the ball rolling. This morning the BBC were saying his social media platforms )or income stream) should be removed

People are entitled to make it known that they won’t support a platform that profits from their data for whatever reason they like.

Journalists on the BBC are pretty much highlighting BBC’s policy that would be applied to them by calling to see similar on other platforms.

IClaudine · 18/09/2023 16:24

When the 16 year old took her accusations to Brand's agents, lawyers threatened her with legal action. Now she has broadcast her accusations on national TV, why haven't the lawyers taken that action? They knew in advance what was going to be said. And why have Brand's agents dropped him?

Cornettoninja · 18/09/2023 16:25

IClaudine · 18/09/2023 16:24

When the 16 year old took her accusations to Brand's agents, lawyers threatened her with legal action. Now she has broadcast her accusations on national TV, why haven't the lawyers taken that action? They knew in advance what was going to be said. And why have Brand's agents dropped him?

Vigilantes dude. C’mon, it’s been explained…

/s

Iwasafool · 18/09/2023 16:30

RedToothBrush · 18/09/2023 14:55

Brand was less wealthy than her, and there was no pre nup.

Apparently he walked away without taking HER to half of HER estate.

Which could be taken as suggesting she had dirt and he walked as he didn't want this raked up in court, she protected her money by agreeing to keep shut or him just fucking off and not being arsed about the money.

NDAs don't mean shit anyway if a crime has been committed. Their purpose is largely to intimidate and make the party with less power fear the other.

What does Perry have to fear? She has her own power and could afford to break an NDA and fight any challenge. It serves HER no real purpose other than not having her dirty laundry in public. There's no real financial incentive here if she does have dirt on Brand. At this point being complicit if something were to come out later is potentially more damaging to her.

I just don't buy that she's under an NDA.

It's much more likely, that she'd tell him to piss off and not contest the divorce settlement in anyway so HIS private life isn't dragged through the public scrutiny of the courts.

Thanks, that is a great explanation.

IClaudine · 18/09/2023 16:32

An allegation of sexual assault has now been made to the Met.

Bingbangbongbash · 18/09/2023 16:35

@Maatandosiris

i can’t find the article you seem to be referring to, but ‘the BBC’ is unlikely to be calling for anything like that. Someone quoted by the BBC or a columnist (note, they are different to journalists in that they write opinion / satire / personal anecdotes, not news) might have said something like that - which I can’t disagree with, since he’s a bellend with a penchant for dangerous misinformation, as well as a predatory wanker.

Also, the Met have been contacted about an alleged sexual assault in Soho in 2003. There are also more women in contact with the Times, who are currently verifying their claims. I don’t get why, though? Surely they can just publish them straight away, what with the lack of fact checking and checks & balances.

RedToothBrush · 18/09/2023 16:36

Maatandosiris · 18/09/2023 15:52

Unfortunately you have hit the mail on the head. Yes the legal system should be the check on the media, but social media has upset this balance. It clearly moves far quicker than the legal system can do. the legal system will never override the narrative now ingrained in peoples minds, a narrative put forward by the media, entrenched by social media.

If this goes to court, and on the off chance a fair trial can now be heard (unlikely) and RB is found not guilty. RB sues channel 4 and the Sunday Times. What then? Do you think he will be seen as innocent? Do you think his mental health will be repaired (and his family’s). Or will people treat him like (?and call him) a rapist forever?

Again this is not about whether RB is guilty or not. It is whether this trial by media is morally and legally right.

Even if RB is tried and found not guilty of rape, this DOESN'T mean he would be successful suing the press.

The Times and C4 can justify this in various ways.

Brand's behaviour doesn't really satisfy employment standards we would expect from public broadcasters. Using Brand as an example is a much lower threshold to argue in terms of why there should be a public debate about Brand in particular.

They also have case law on their side in terms of the public interest.

David Banks AT DBanksy
Remember, media law geeks, that The Sunday Times and #Dispatches are relying on the public interest in their investigation into Russell Brand. 30 years ago the ST published the story that led to the courts establishing the Reynolds Defence for public interest journalism.

Replaced now by the statutory defence of publication in the public interest in the Defamation Act 2013, the ‘10 steps’ of the Reynolds Defence are still a useful guide to journalists working on issues of public interest that might face legal challenge

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v_Times_Newspapers_Ltd

The premise of this as a defence is as follows:
The case provided the Reynolds defence, which could be raised where it was clear that the journalist had a duty to publish an allegation even if it turned out to be wrong.

And the ten basic points are:

Depending on the circumstances, the matters to be taken into account include the following. The comments are illustrative only.

1) The seriousness of the allegation. The more serious the charge, the more the public is misinformed and the individual harmed, if the allegation is not true.
2) The nature of the information, and the extent to which the subject-matter is a matter of public concern.
3) The source of the information. Some informants have no direct knowledge of the events. Some have their own axes to grind, or are being paid for their stories.
4) The steps taken to verify the information.
5) The status of the information. The allegation may have already been the subject of an investigation which commands respect.
6) The urgency of the matter. News is often a perishable commodity.
7) Whether comment was sought from the plaintiff. He may have information others do not possess or have not disclosed. An approach to the plaintiff will not always be necessary.
8) Whether the article contained the gist of the plaintiff's side of the story.
9) The tone of the article. A newspaper can raise queries or call for an investigation. It need not adopt allegations as statements of fact.
10) The circumstances of the publication, including the timing.

This list is not exhaustive. The weight to be given to these and any other relevant factors will vary from case to case. Any disputes of primary fact will be a matter for the jury, if there is one.

Arguably, there is a case about the role of the public broadcasters and the status and behaviour of stars, which was not challenged and was to the detriment of female staff and any females the star may have come into contact with (hence the need to include a lot of what some posters have called 'extra fluff'. It's not. It's about standards in public life of those in positions of power and authority - that's Brand AND his managers at TV and radio).

You also have the point about the female comedian WhatsApp safety group and the wider argument about women in comedy not feeling safe.

And more generally the fact that women in the media industry do not feel able to report rape or sexual assault by any star due to power imbalances and the risk of THEIR reputational damage and loss of career. And the total lack of trust in the criminal justice system when it comes to rape.

And THESE are really important considerations in the nature of the allegations and the way they've been presented. And the strength of any case Brand might counter without criminal case against him or even with a firm not guilty verdict. BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT BRAND AS AN INDIVIDUAL. It's about the wider context of his behaviour and how even lesser behaviour was tolerated and ignored over a long period of time due to a pursuit of ratings over all else.

Thats why they included stuff like the discussion about removing all female production staff to 'protect them' and allow their star to continue. This shouldn't even have been a serious consideration. It would be unthinkable in every other industry as it's straight up institutional sexism at work.

C4 and The Times might get accused of failing on certain points over trying to over hype the story. I strongly suspect that the women concerned haven't received a penny for giving their stories in line with some of the considerations above. With regards to timing, some will argue that it's a conspiracy to shut up Brand cos he's after the establishment but I doubt that would stand up to much in court. Indeed the timing could work in C4 and The Times favour precisely because Brand already no longer is working on mainstream TV in the UK so there is less for him to lose from loss of existing TV work.

Brand's lawyers know this. C4 and The Times know this. And also have a point that will be exceptionally difficult to strike down in court in Brand's favour.

I do wish that people would stop thinking it's trial by media. It's about a lot more than that and a lot more than Brand himself. There is a real failure to understand many of the points made by The Times and C4 and the importance of these points.

I do think Brand would be foolish to go to court. He is a self confessed sex addict. His own words aren't exactly going to help him in terms of a good character reference. (Which also ties in with the extent of damage to his reputation - he can't argue that as much as he was never squeaky clean). He'd end up with a lot of stress and a big legal bill. He may try and to it, in order to enhance his status as anti-establishment and to try and 'score a hit against the main stream media by costing them a lot' but that's going to be expensive and risky and unlikely to result in a net gain.

The Reynolds Defence is really quite robust even though on the face of it, it might sound like it's protects the all powerful mass media. It requires a lot of hoops and work to meet the threshold in a court. And that's a MASSIVE balance in power whether others want to realise it or not - because it's centring the public interest - ordinary people not celebrities nor institutions.

Reynolds v Times Newspapers Ltd - Wikipedia

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reynolds_v_Times_Newspapers_Ltd

CorylusAgain · 18/09/2023 16:39

IClaudine · 18/09/2023 16:32

An allegation of sexual assault has now been made to the Met.

And I for one completely understand why this individual may only now feel able to have done this. The investigation and broadcast programme may go some way to redress the enormous inequality in power and status between the alleged victim and alleged perpetrator.

Cornettoninja · 18/09/2023 16:44

given reports of Brand liberally making use of injunctions to shut down rumours maybe the injunction system needs looking at. I’ll admit I don’t know much about them but at first glance it seems to have grossly misused.

RedToothBrush · 18/09/2023 16:50

Cornettoninja · 18/09/2023 16:44

given reports of Brand liberally making use of injunctions to shut down rumours maybe the injunction system needs looking at. I’ll admit I don’t know much about them but at first glance it seems to have grossly misused.

It is being looked at.

This is the stuff the government are currently looking at in terms of SLAPPS legislation.

They have initially decided to go with a narrow definition to essentially protect against Russian Oligarchs but there's a lot of support from both Tory and Labour benches to go much further.

This is currently stuck in Parliament and close to the first phase getting through I think. But I'd need to check exactly what it's current status actually is.

In this sense you could argue yet another public interest argument connected with timing and urgency...

RedToothBrush · 18/09/2023 16:52

SLAPPS
Strategic lawsuit against public participation

used to silence weaker parties from speaking out publicly on an issue.

Whereforartthoudave · 18/09/2023 17:05

Mmm, since when do we demand that investigative journalism is only done on someone already convicted?

RB is a rape-y scumbag of the highest order. ‘Controlling’ in every aspect when he was on tv and allowed to get away with it.
He’s claiming the ‘mainstream’ are after him - while his biggest audiences are all on MAINSTREAM platforms owned by mainstream global tech firms. He IS mainstream. Just on platforms where he can talk AT people without anyone talking back to him.
So do fuck off, Russ, with your ‘ they’re after me for telling the truth!’

He moved online because he was becoming unemployable everywhere else - he’s such a rude, conceited twat treating everyone around him like shit ( runners, crew, make up and wardrobe, producers, writers, drivers , catering, EVERYONE) all the time PLUS he couldn’t be left alone with female staff, young female staffers in particular because of his reputation of being a slimy creep. Not a ‘wild man’ or promiscuous just an inappropriate dirty creep.

It’s not a media circus. It’s the result of a 4 year investigation by 2 different teams who would have had to been sure that their evidence was rock solid - RBs lawyers are notoriously terrifying, attack dogs who so far have scared off any individual trying to talk about him.

Bit still, you rock on OP, and give a serial
sex offender the benefit of the doubt.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 18/09/2023 17:07

I think it is right this time. He is rich, quite powerful and has said he's fine suing those who "defame" him

I appreciate you added ""this time", but if we normalise acceptance of the public crying guilty, what happens when it's someone who can't afford to sue? Those without means already often struggle to access the law, and wouldn't this add another layer of disadvantage?

Granted Joe Bloggs down the road wouldn't generate three threads' worth of initials speculating on "who it is", but that doesn't mean he'd suffer less

RedToothBrush · 18/09/2023 17:08

If this opens up metoo for the comedy circuit, it pretty much nails the Reynolds Defence for the The Time and C4.

It won't have have to prove shit about Brand.

Stoic123 · 18/09/2023 17:13

YeahIsaidit · 18/09/2023 11:13

Things like this thread and the others make me firmer in my belief that shows and articles of this manner shouldn't be released until after there's been a charge or conviction. Nobody except for RB and any people involved know what the truth is and here we have 100(0)s of people labelling someone they've never ever interacted with a rapist, with any others saying to wait until any legal action is taken being called rape apologists (truly disgusting)

The ins and outs of why people do or do not report incidents of SA have been covered countless times and there's no need to go into it again, however. How many careers/lives have been ruined by false allegations, Johnny Depp for example, Jim Davidson, Matthew Kelly, Cliff Richard etc etc. To those saying "why would they make it up" well why did anyone make any of those false allegations? It would be different if it was a random bloke off the street but when it's someone within the celebrity sphere, surely nobody is so naive as to not get why someone would make false allegations against them, (their own taste of fame, sympathy, attention seeking, £££)

I'm not saying he's definitely guilty or not guilty but I do think it is horribly unfair to sit and lable someone as anything without there being a proper LEGAL investigation rather than going off a sensationalised TV show.

Strongly disagree that the Dispatches show was sensationalised - did you actually watch it?

The ins and outs are extremely relevant here- you are being disingenous (or naive?) to dismiss them.

Newsnight investigated Saville and NY Times investigated Weinstein. Decent investigative jounalism (and there is nothing I seen in the programme or Sunday Times coverage to suggest it hasn't been the case) has had a valuable role in holding abusers of power to account (and not just in SA cases).

If every wrong doer could only be labelled after a legal case ... there goes Watchdog (and ever other consumer rights programme), there goes exposure of government corruption, there goes big business manslaughter investigations etc.

Boom time for abusers of power!

Chickenkeev · 18/09/2023 17:16

It was sensationalised as in it was very heavily advertised in advance. So sparked lots of discussion/speculation.