Bully XLs - if breed-specific legislation isn't the answer, what is?

[Middlelanehogger]

Upfront - I'm glad bully XLs will be banned. There have been way too many attacks and if we're going to have a banned breeds list then they definitely belong on it!

But I do agree a bit with people who say BSL is a bit pointless because backyard breeders will just create another one and then there will be a few years of muddled statistics before the govt realises this is the new killer breed and then has to take months and months to define it etc

So what should the rule be... ideally one that is predictive in advance and not just waiting for the dogs to kill first... Size/weight? Zero tolerance for "minor" bites? Dog licences for all? Make owners & breeders criminally responsible for murders their dogs commit?

YANBU = yes this is a serious issue
YABU = my velvet hippo would never hurt a fly

@ntmdino no not necessarily. I supposed the KC would be the obvious ones to oversee whether the documents/health testing has been done and the COI is low enough. There would have to be some sort of database somewhere. Whether you agree with the KC or not isn't really the question here.

My personal opinion is that qualified independent and registered behaviourist and veterinarian should assess all dogs being rehomed or bred from, not random lay people in kennels with no knowledge of background of general behaviour, genetics or health problems that influence behaviour.
Providing a qualified person is responsible for assessing and reporting on the data and making the decision it shouldn’t really matter which organisation holds and displays it- it’s not like they could edit the information or decision.

Its too hypothetical anyway because the money and resources just aren’t there!

I'll certainly be glad to see XL bully's banned from breeding and forced to wear muzzles and be om a lead.

There's a moron in my daughters town that walks with his status dog off lead and its attacked a few dog's, but as its dog on dog the police not interested, they will be from.now on thankfully as anybody that sees him breaking the new rules will report to police

I would have:

Licence to own a dog given after a home check
Mandatory pet insurance
Mandatory annual vet visit at least
Mandatory chip
Mandatory self funded training for recall and other basic commands

Stop and check powers granted for the first two years of implementing this - if you can't provide evidence your dog is removed and destroyed.

Lets just get rid of all dogs. Attacks, shit everywhere, constant barking. They are not worth it.

I do agree about the constant barking. We had a recent holiday ruined because everywhere we went including restaurants/pubs, there were dogs barking and owners not able to stop it. I looked at dogs being dragged around, including in heat of 30 degrees, the vast majority looking absolutely miserable, and felt so sorry for the dogs. Most owners I encountered didn’t seem to have a clue how to look after their pet.

I don’t think anyone is saying small dogs shouldn’t be trained

The point is that if a small dog bit you, you could kick it off and you would at best get a small wound. If a bill XL bit you you’d stand no chance. So this “all dogs has the potential to harm” is BS really

But you could say the same about MOTs and insurance. Of course some people still drive illegal vehicles, but there are consequences if/when they're caught. If all dogs were chipped, and police/dog wardens carried scanners, any non-compliant dogs could be seized on the spot.

I agree with this.

And as a society we need to toughen up about humane euthanasia. It's horrible for the owners, but the animal literally knows nothing about it, it's no different to them than being anaesthetised for neutering etc.

It's a legal requirement now for all dogs to be chipped. If a dog is found without one the owner has X amount of days to get it chipped or a £500 fine.

Zero tolerance for "minor" bites?

Yes. The man that owned the two dogs from the attack the other day had already been spoken to twice about them. I can't understand why he still had them. I'd have zero tolerance for aggression, or a dog being out of control. Removing aggressive dogs quickly should be the norm.

honestly all dogs should need a licence and evidence of at least basic obedience training and socialisation. Breeders should be legally made to accept any returned puppies ( their details could be stored on the microchip alongside the owners). We were discussing this at puppy class today.

Licensing for all breeders.

Change insurance requirements so dogs from unlicensed breeders cannot be covered.

Make it an offence not to have 3P insurance for a dog.

These would probably pay for themselves in reducing insurance costs.

If I were a politician, I'd want to be very careful to avoid basically making it impossible for working class people to afford dogs. Which many proposals would do.

You could possibly make completion of a training course a requirement for some breeds or sizes of dog. And have pet insurance priced lower for people who complete a pre-dog purchase training course that would include a module on how to choose a breed and manage risk.

I also think we should try to change the culture away from treating dogs like our furbabies/harmless/nanny dogs and put them back in the 'animal' box rather than the 'just like a human' box. Destroy any dangerous ones rather than coop them up in shelters, none of this 'he needs a good home with no children or other animals and a Lon owner that can train him not to react bla bla bla' just put it down.
Sick of seeing stupid parents with dogs three times the size of their newborn drooling over it 'protecting the baby/best friends bla bla'

Yes, but I mean there could be more info on the chip, and if any of the legal requirements are missing (yearly vet check, compulsory owner training, or whatever it might be) then the dog can and will be seized. In reality, no one's going to be doing random spot checks on a dog walking calmly down the street on a lead. But in a scenario where a dog is causing concern, immediate action could be taken.

100% this.

BIL has an XL Bully.

Fair enough it’s never bitten anyone but I won’t let my kids anywhere near the slathering horrible beast, it’s head is twice the size of my 6yo’s and if it turned whoever is closest would be screwed.

BIL acts like I’m the most ridiculous precious human ever and says “He’s soft I can’t believe you’re scared of him he would never hurt a fly” and is now posting “cute” pictures on FB saying “Look at my oh so dangerous dog” and moron ILs are commenting on how lovely he is.

I don’t have time for this level of total delusion and quite frankly if police seized all Bully XLs tomorrow from their ‘furever homes’ (🤮) it couldn’t come sooner IMO and I’d be delighted and no I wouldn’t feel sorry for the people who could choose any family dog or calm dog and chose one that makes them look hard instead.

Low hanging fruit? Greater prosecution of ear cropping. It’s already illegal, cruel, unnecessary and strongly correlates to twats who want a status dog/ backyard breeders rather than responsible owners. Substantial fixed penalty notice if reported/ seen by police, registration of dog and mandatory attendance to dog health, welfare and training course. (Motivation to owner to attend is that once they have the dog is registered otherwise they can be fined again).

Only acceptable defence to cancel FPN is evidence dog is rehomed from a registered charity and therefore unendorsed by current owner who will have already be externally assessed by charity as meeting minimum standards of competence/responsibility. Reduction in penalty if person responsible for cropping is named, with carrying out the act receiving a 5 figure fine and potential prison sentence.

We desperately need tougher laws and prison sentences. My rescue came from a large puppy farm whe had hundreds of dogs, she was starved, slept in her own mess, deprived of water, truly awful circumstances. The guys that were charged said they did it because they got into debt and needed the money, shame eh. They got a ban from owning dog, not one day spent in prison for the suffering they caused.

do they actually check they don’t have new dogs, nope. We need proper laws, sentences, licenses for breeders and money to actually prosecute.

Hard agree, pp. We just need enforcement of the laws already in place. Police are not on it. There’s not enough monitoring or prosecution. Breeders do whatever tf they want and get away with it.

The trouble is people get dogs pregnant and just see ££££. My friend bought a dog in lockdown for £3000!! The mum had 6 puppies, talk about a cash cow. With that kind of money to be made, I can see why so many dogs are "accidentally" bred.

Professional breeders can charge serious money for their studs, read up on the XL Bully Kimbo, his stud fees were mad! The breeder on panorama charged tens of thousands. Its too much of a money maker for irresponsible breeders to resist.

If it were law that you couldn't sell puppies for profit, and only recoup the costs for vet care you can bet there would be less accidental breeding happening.

I wouldn't go quite as far, but would agree that all dogs should be on lead in all public areas except for securely fenced in dog parks.

generally I think keeping pets is cruel in most cases and should be a lot more expensive as discouragement.

Breeders details are on microchips or can be. Breeders simply ignore authorities when they're contacted.
At my vets a couple of months ago we had a big dog brought in and we posted on Facebook that he was chipped but the owner and breeder both could not be contacted. Somebody recognised the dog and tagged the breeder in the post and she untagged herself. Nothing was done by the police or anything and the dog went to the dog warden and then a rescue centre.

I've just looked at Pets4homes website. They have 845 'American Bully' puppies for sale, compared to 143 Goldendoodles. Refusing new adverts for these dogs would be a start. Letting those currently advertising know that that's the last time would be fair and reasonable. A lot of the current bully adverts indicate they've reduced their original asking price, so the message is getting through.

The easiest thing to implement would be compulsory third party liability insurance for every dog. Insurance companies are great at evaluating risk.

I hate this answer because it's punishing dogs with responsible owners.

What it's saying is that I couldn't walk my JR without a muzzle which is stupid.