Bully XLs - if breed-specific legislation isn't the answer, what is?

[Middlelanehogger]

Upfront - I'm glad bully XLs will be banned. There have been way too many attacks and if we're going to have a banned breeds list then they definitely belong on it!

But I do agree a bit with people who say BSL is a bit pointless because backyard breeders will just create another one and then there will be a few years of muddled statistics before the govt realises this is the new killer breed and then has to take months and months to define it etc

So what should the rule be... ideally one that is predictive in advance and not just waiting for the dogs to kill first... Size/weight? Zero tolerance for "minor" bites? Dog licences for all? Make owners & breeders criminally responsible for murders their dogs commit?

YANBU = yes this is a serious issue
YABU = my velvet hippo would never hurt a fly

The problem begins long before the owners get their dogs. The current BSL is useless, because it pays no attention to the actual heritage of the dog, so even if you believe that breed = behaviour, our current laws are insufficient to fix the problem (unless, of course, you think that a dog's dimensions determine its behaviour) and adding more breeds to the list won't change that.

It's actually really simple to fix this whole thing, conceptually, and make all the dog enthusiasts happy at the same time.

• Keep the spirit of the Dangerous Dogs act - any dog that has proven to be a danger should be subject to restrictions.
• Make all owners responsible for the behaviour of their dogs as though they themselves committed the crime.
• Define dog breeds by genetics in the law, instead of using the Kennel Club's abusive breed standards.
• Make all dog breeding illegal without a licence, which should be prohibitively expensive for the average person, and make it contingent on welfare inspections. Massive fines for anybody whose dog has even one litter; breeding should only be done by people who actually know what they're doing. Don't want a fine? Neuter your dog.
• Prohibit the breeding and import of dog breeds on the banned list - as defined by the aforementioned genetic heritage testing (including 50% genetic content - the point being not to continue lines that were banned).
• Require all breeders to produce at least 40% of litters as unrelated crossbreeds, and must be able to prove minimal inbreeding for every litter.
• All dogs subject to restrictions under the DDA should be neutered (ie never allow a dangerous dog to reproduce).

There you go. All banned breeds disappear from the gene pool, dog welfare increases, uninformed idiots can't breed dogs to make some cash on the side, the Kennel Club no longer has ever-more-abusive control of breed standards, shitty owners go to jail if they can't keep their dogs under control, and everybody's happy.

This, of course, is hard work compared to adding another breed to a list that's already as useful as a chocolate teapot, and sadly won't placate the "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!" crowd or grab headlines and votes.

I so agree with this . This feral underclass need sorting for the misery they cause .

There was a guy on the radio who had originally written the DDA legislation. He also seemed to be of the opinion that dogs bred for fighting have no place in society.

I'm not stupid thanks. I said it was my dream scenario, I'm well aware it would never happen.

Deal with the criminal lowlife who like having these animals. The drug dealers, the pimps, the antisocial scum who blight certain neighbourhoods.

This. That’s the underlying issue, not whether flavour of the week is rotties, staffies, mastiffs, knives, machetes or whatever else.

This, I think this is the solution

I have a big breed dog that needs alot of exercise.

I meet alot of bam dog owners who seem clueless. It shocks me how lazy some owners are.

Mandatory theory and practical dog licence for owners. Good citizen test mandatory for off leash dogs. Like a licence for cars different catalegories for dog ownership so extra testing done for bigger or higher prey drive dogs etc

Some breeds aren't Good pets and would be best neutered with a breeding ban

But… the breeds we “blamed” in the past are now not a problem so clearly it DOES work, I have small dogs, if one of them went rabid and attacked to kill you’d get stitches and a bad bruise. They literally couldn’t kill unless it was a freak accident.

A bull breed’s jaws brings a gun to a knife fight.

@ntmdino I like all your suggestions wholeheartedly. I have a different point of view on not banning certain breeds but I think you offer some real practical solutions that would work in the real world

If I’m being 100% honest (and I’m prepared to be flamed) I’d personally be fine if all dog ownership was banned tomorrow. I think there’s too many dogs and way too many bad owners, it’s immoral on every level, and the UK population has proven itself to be too stupid to own pets properly.

But given that is unlikely, I think it IS the only answer - to define what an XL Bully is and ban them. They can go in homes and take them away for all I care - I’m sick of seeing news of children dying and being injured, in sick of thickos defending them and deluding themselves that biology is irrelevant and I’m REALLY sick of going to public places and trying to dodge all the people - lets face it it’s a certain kind of person who owns on me of these awful beasts (always ‘hard man’ type blokes) who often don’t even have them on leads, as they try and follow my children or sniff my crotch.

humans need to have license's to eg drive a car, why not a license to have a dog etc ?

Really helpful @ntmdino @Frequency and others... do you have a sense of how easy it would be to change the law for these suggestions? E.g. are there any orgs which have proposals for what might be a sensible set of rules for genetic tests?

@HauntingSecrets oh don't get me wrong, I actually don't have a problem with banning breeds. And we should keep that on the books until/unless a better suggestion comes along.

I just don't want backyard breeders taking some Killer Kimbo descendent, crossing it with a rottweiler and calling it a totally separate breed. Probably with an equally stupid name like "Rotty KK"

And you think the type of people who keep these dogs will respond to such requirements? They keep these animals to look hard or to do organised fighting. They're generally not very intelligent and care only about street cred. They don't want lil Buster's balls removing 'cos they want him to look hard and to be used for breeding purposes.

YANBU there's only one way.
Jail and fine owners for their dogs' actions. Even the smallest bite.
It should be the same sentence as if the owner personally caused the injury, not the dog.
The less dogs we have in the world the better anyway. I'm a dog lover but so many unsuitable people have them now.

Treat all dogs as weapons?
Anyone can own a dog (where the breed standard is) under 20kg, over that must be registered and over X weight needs a license?

While the following is about importing dogs into Australia, it raises interesting possibilities. Along with a short list of banned breeds there is the proviso to include crosses and anything that has any of the characteristics of a banned breed. Obviously the numbers of dogs up for import is far smaller than the number of problematic dogs in the UK, but Australia bins off the DNA route straight off.

Yes to dog licensing. If it can be done in Australia, it can be done in the UK. What's needed is the political will to do so. Where I live, the licence has to be renewed annually and unsexed animal licences cost more. The licence, a disc, has to be on the dog's collar at all times outside the home.

Dog breeding through licensed breeders only. Legal changes to make it easier to sue for dog bite injuries. Mandatory dog licenses, for all dogs, with associated insurance.

Good for reducing attacks, good for victims of attacks and especially good for the welfare of dogs.

I mean you only have to watch Bluey to know Australia have got it right.

Exactly.

These suggestion are good ones in an ideal world. But in the real world, thugs get these poor dog’s ears clipped to make them look hard - they’re never gonna muzzle them and turn up to puppy classes are they

That doesn’t stop these dogs killing though. Prevention is better than cure

Oh, my suggestion wouldn't be easy at all. Aside from the usual process of defining laws without loopholes (if humans in groups love to do one thing, it's gaming the system), there would be intense lobbying against the key part - making breed a function of genetics by law. The Kennel Club would pile tons of cash into lobbying to prevent that happening, because being the sole arbiters of breed standards is core to their business model. Similarly, breeders would huck all the money they can spare into preventing the large licence fees and mandatory inspections from ever coming into law, while simultaneously supporting the backyard breeder provisions.

The trouble is that unless it's all implemented, it's useless. If one part is neutered or weakened, none of the rest of it works.

unsexed animal licences cost more I meant to write un desexed. Is that even a.word?

Bearing in mind that there is now no chance of ever doing anything about the feral underclass, perhaps it's time to put a limit on what size dog people can own. Allow only the smaller breeds which have no particular power and which can be overpowered by pretty much anyone (baring the frail elderly or very small children) in the event of biting. Small dogs can be snappy and yappy, but don't kill people. Cat owners are happy owning domestic cats and don't expect to own pet pumas or tigers, so why not reduce the size of pet dogs to something manageable which can be kept in today's overcrowded and urbanised society?