To not know how to drag myself into this century?

[duringthewarrodney]

I’m a long-time poster on MN but have never posted in this category. I partake and post about my GC quite a lot (I care for them often), so I’ve NC’d for this post. And I’m sorry, now I’ve finished bashing the keyboard, I’m aware this is tediously long....

I’m in my early 60’s and recently, although physically I still feel much younger, mentally is a whole different matter. Reading a lot of posts in AIBU is making me realise that I’m turning into an old-fashioned, intolerant hag who is stuck a few decades behind.

I read posts where, to me, someone has been unreasonable and/or just a spoiled brat or downright rude. Yet (and here is my problem), so many responses are defending the ‘unreasonable’ behaviour, by pointing out that the offender may have a ND disorder, suffer from insecurity or may have had a difficult upbringing, other hidden issues etc. In some cases yes, but for the vast majority of content, I find myself reading it and thinking “FFS, accept you were just plain wrong and get on with it”.

And I’m having a battle with myself over my perspective of this. I’m ashamed that I’m turning into the type of person who I have always been so derisive of – and afraid that I’m becoming ‘that’ person who is stuck in a generation time warp of “It wasn’t like this in my day” and “It’s nothing that a bit of discipline won’t sort out”. My 6-year-old GS said to me the other day (after he refused to get out of the bath when I said it was time to get dry and into PJs for bed) “Nanny, you do know I have choices, don’t you?”. I swallowed a smile and agreed that yes he does have choices in many things, but explained that sometimes we all need help to make the correct choice. He said “Getting out of the bath is not the right choice for me right now, Miss XYZ at school said we must always remember that we can challenge a choice if it’s not right”. He’s 6 years old ffs! Worth mentioning that he’s usually a jolly, well-grounded little chap and doesn’t give anyone too much trouble and hearing him speak like this is so out of character. Of course now I think he’s going to end up on AIBU at some point for being “entitled” (which seems to be a contender for word of the year at the moment….see, dinosaur mode has kicked in again!)

I mentioned this to his Mum (my DD) and she rolled her eyes and said that I have to get with the times and things are very different for children than they were ‘back in my day’. She said that no child should ever be told what to do without a full explanation of why they are being asked to do it. I told her that I HAD explained to the GS why he needed to get out of the bath (that it’s bedtime, school the next day and how hard it is at school if you’re already tired when you get there etc.), but GS response to this was that I was not being kind, and it’s very important to be kind. I was very kind about it!

This morning I read a post about someone having problems with a new employee (young graduate) who had got something a little wrong at work. When picked up on it, the employee obviously felt she was being victimised and wanted an apology from the manager who had raised the issue. Whilst the majority of replies were along the lines of “she’s trouble/get rid”, many more answers suggested that fresh eyes in the workplace might not be a bad thing and that the new employee shouldn’t just accept the way things work there currently, just because it’s always been done a certain way. I genuinely felt a flash of anger at these responses. In this case, the OP said the workplace is a good place to be, the existing team is a happy one, there’s a good working vibe etc. and productivity is good. Why the heck would anyone believe that the work culture there needs changing just because someone didn’t like being told they had messed up?

There are many more examples I could list where I’ve found myself in the minority camp of ‘just suck it up’ and I’m starting to at best doubt myself and at worst, not liking the narrow-minded person that I’m worried I’m becoming. This is manifesting in RL too – struggling to think of an actual scenario now, but let’s use driving as one. I have driven almost daily for well over 40 years (and proud to say I’ve never had so much as a bump in all that time, likely an element of luck here, but still proud of it all the same). Lately, I’m finding the intolerance of other road users is at a whole new level. The slightest ‘wrong’ move (for eg. not driving fast enough for the driver of a car behind me, or auto headlights on occasion having not dipped soon enough for an oncoming vehicle at night), results in a barrage of horn-blowing, fist-waving and other gesticulations. I’m pretty sure that this aggression was much less prolific years ago, when an apologetic hand raised was acknowledged with a nod. So, is this another example of times changing and me not keeping up? It seems a constant struggle between ‘we must be kind’ and ‘we must also not be afraid to scream and shout if we feel we are being wronged’!

I am deeply ashamed that I am going to be ‘that’ 80-year-old who sits in a wing-backed chair bemoaning ‘the youth of today’ and ‘what has the world come to’. I don’t want to be, but equally, I honestly don’t know how to go about being more tolerant of changing times and accepting that things can’t stay the same. I know I need to understand that just because something was considered ‘right’ years ago, may not necessarily be appropriate or relevant now. I struggle with this more than I care to admit.

How do I drag myself into the 2000s and stop myself from ending up a miserable, wizened old bat? I should mention that when reading AIBU threads, I do sometimes realise I’ve read some opposing opinions to mine that I’d not thought of before, and when that happens I’m pleased that I’ve been able to recognise differing viewpoints, but it doesn’t happen as often as I’d like.

Please be kind – I don’t want to get bashed for being like this (I can do that just fine on my own!), but I'd really welcome any advice on how to be a bit more open-minded, and yes, tolerant of other peoples’ opinions. It’s likely irrelevant, but I’d also like to mention that this became more noticeable during/after a very late menopause. I’ve also struggled with ongoing anxiousness, memory problems and horrible brain fog since this time, which HRT hasn’t really improved (that said, I’m more convinced these problems are more attributable to having had a difficult few years with the loss of loved ones from Covid at the beginning, business struggles at the same time and having sole care of elderly and ailing parents), so I’m still hoping these issues are transient and will resolve when my situation changes). But can the menopause change your personality or am I just looking for excuses?

Thank you if you made it to the end and haven't nodded off by now!

I'm late 40s and definitely agree with you. I think your GS was being very clever and selective in representing what he'd been told in school. I work in a school and we do talk a lot about choices but in regard to making the correct/sensible choice rather than choosing the wrong behaviour which will have a negative consequence. So in the bath example of course you can choose not to get when GM says but not means there's no time for a bedtime story /hot chocolate whatever. It might also mean you're too tired tomorrow to do X nice thing after school and need to go straight home!

I think you’re worrying about nothing, op.

It’s tempting to look back and think that in the past everyone did X and now everyone does Y, but in fact there’s always been a range of parenting styles- I can remember Ben Elton doing jokes about wet parents and bratty kids 30 years ago. It’s fine to have differences of opinion- just don’t tell yourself that all older people think one thing and all younger ones think another, as it’s not true.

Your GS sounds quite funny. You’ve taken a bit of 6yo trying it on and made far too much if it. I’m sure your DD probably tried her own methods to get her way when she was little as well, except then you’d have seen them for what they were, rather than as a basis for an existential crisis 😂

I work with a lot of younger people and they’re great- hard-working, committed, fun. Individual stories of lazy youngsters are just that- individual stories. I’m fairly confident there were some lazy people around when I was young as well 😂 You need to take a lot of this stuff with a large pinch of salt.

I'm around your age, and with age comes wisdom. We've seen the consequences of change--some is good, but much is not. People today are much less resilient, more angry and more entitled than they used to be. It's not your imagination, and it's not good.

Haha I bet that teacher doesn’t let her 30 six year old kids question her every instruction.

Im a similar age to you @duringthewarrodney and hope to have GC. I look after young Nand N regularly and ‘because I say so’ is very much a phrase. I’m not debating each and every bloody thing. They adore me and definitely like the boundaries I put in place.

I feel similar, OP.

I'm confident I'm a fair-minded, liberal sort of person but reading MN sometimes makes me feel as though I'd be tried and condemned to a re-education camp if some of the more aggressive and (to my mind, intolerant) posters got hold of me!

Don't blame yourself - MN is not the real world. My friends and family are a very different demographic to that which I see on MN, but that's one of the reasons I'm on here - I learn about contemporary attitudes and behaviour which I'd otherwise have no inkling about. So, for me it takes me out of my personal echo-chamber.

Having said that, I don't often like what I read! Some people seem incredibly intolerant, ratty, angry and sweary. And all kinds of crappy behaviour is excused, as you say. There's another thread currently which I don't trust myself to contribute to, asking what changes should be made to UK society. God help anyone who might go against the grain on that...

I’m in my late fifties so only two or three years younger than you and I can relate to almost every word that you have written. Regarding the issue of choices it would not be unreasonable to respond that grownups have choices too and that your choice was for him to get out of the bath and go to bed! I don’t like saying “in our day” but it was true that we had to just get on with things and l think it made us more resilient as a result. As for the attitude of the young employee in the earlier post….words fail me. I don’t think we are out of touch with the times as much as the fact that there has been such a seismic shift in attitudes in the past few years so that the things that we always accepted as right and normal are being challenged at every corner.

I'm in my 40s and agree with you too.

I'm 50 and I agree, OP

I am happy that he has choices, but he doesn’t have the understanding of longer term consequences of his choices, so I reserve the right to over rule his decision.

This

i also pay the bills, and as long as i do so its my way or the high way.

Oh and im 38.

Teachers nowadays particularly at primary are extremely young with no life experience, barely finished with their own maturation. This explains why it's all 'right to question' etc. A mother knows why there are hard no's, why there are sometimes no opt outs. We know kids thrive on routine and boundaries. They are secure when the adult is in charge and takes care of them. Think what the alternative looks like. Kids push those boundaries - which is an entirely natural and desirable development. Responsible adults know when to enforce or when to relax the boundaries. Such is life.

I'm mid 40's and I'm eye rolling on your behalf at what your dd said.

What a load tedious load of twaddle, no wonder kids on schools can't behave. Next time say to your grandson 'Yes you do have a choice, you can get out the bath or you can stand in it shivering after I've let the water out!'. When my dd used to refuse to put her shoes on I'd say fine and walk out the door into the rain with them in my hand. She could chose to put them on or get wet feet.

Yes, it's important to teach children they have the right to say no about things like hugs, kisses, strangers etc but no one needs to negotiate with a child about why they should be getting out of the bloody bath....ridiculous! Would you let a child 'chose' to climb an electric pylon or play with the bread knife?

My 24 year old DD said the other day that she thanks god that she wasn't a young person "in this day and age" but had her childhood when she did - some 10 to 20 years ago.

I think the rate of change is simply uncatchupable with. I'm judgemental as hell these days and notice I'm becoming less tolerant of all and sundry. I worry that I'm about to vote Tory for the first time in 60 years. I worry that I'm approaching my technological hard-stop, and that the next new thing will simply feel beyond me.

But I don't worry too much because I'm damn cool :)

Thank you for this thread OP because I think it's a really interesting topic. It's something I've been thinking a lot about lately.

In the interests of transparency, I'm mid 30s and I'm probably one of the "idealist" younger thinkers that you refer to, though not quite as extreme as the examples given. (I'd fully admit that I probably do err a bit on the side of too idealistic at times).

I think it's important to recognise that behaviour isn't necessarily what it appears to be on the surface (e.g. rudeness etc) and that often there can be a failure of communication, misunderstanding etc. I think that sometimes the older ways of just saying no - that's rude/wrong/etc, it's always rude and this person just needs to get with the programme and do things differently can be unhelpful or even discriminatory. I feel like sometimes rigid ideas of right/wrong etc can be unhelpful because often, they are simply based in "well it's always been that way" and not actually in reasoning which makes sense, and they don't always work or make sense for everybody. And that makes me wonder WHY people want to cling to having set, clear ideas of what is right and what is wrong - is it because it feels clearer and easier to understand than something more nuanced? Is it because people who support these kinds of things have found themselves on the "right" side, that whether or not it was easy to do the thing that was considered right, it worked for them? So they have a sense that it's achievable for everyone if only they make the right choices, work hard, etc.

Because I feel like sometimes the "old way" where you have deserving person A who has done all the right things and behaved correctly and made the right choices, (in theory) gets rewarded and undeserving person B who did the wrong things and behaved incorrectly, has to suffer the consequences of their own actions - it's a lovely myth but it's never existed! If you listen to people's real stories, there has never ever ever been a world where good hardworking people get rewards and only "bad" "lazy" people are ostracised and suffer - that's just not true. Most often and especially the further you go back in history, the people who are suffering have simply been unlucky or were less able to access the skills, knowledge, or opportunities available to the people who have been successful. It's not necessarily their fault that they ended up that way. And not all the people doing well are nice, kind, good people either. So to me the system where you judge people on their actions as being good or bad has never worked and there needs to be a whole different ideology in place, preferably one that isn't judging people at all! (I can come back and elaborate on this but I'm getting a bit tired so probably not right now).

In terms of child raising, I do think it's fair to explain things to children as a courtesy as somebody said. The idea that no child should EVER be told what to do without a FULL explanation though is just crazy and impractical - that's not how communication works for a start. I do think that we should treat children with enough respect to be willing to explain things, but you should also have enough of a relationship where they trust you to have their best interests at heart and don't question every little thing constantly. And there are situations (e.g. school) where it makes sense for children to understand that certain adults are just unequivocally in charge and should generally be deferred to, even if the "relationship" bit isn't necessarily in place. But in general where it's possible then yes, it makes sense to listen to children, get their point of view etc. I don't think a 6yo saying that you're not being kind for making them get out of the bath is really meaning the same thing that an adult would mean there - they are just expressing that they are a bit fed up and don't want to stop having fun playing, which is kind of fair TBH. My ideal response would probably be to acknowledge that feeling, then consider whether 5 more minutes is reasonable, possibly negotiate (I do a lot of telling my 5yo we need to set a timer, but he can choose how long for - and then rejecting the number if it's something crazy like 100 minutes!) and if it's really not then move them on in a positive way - my realistic response might be quite a bit less kind, depending on my own energy and patience level. And that's just being human, isn't it?

OP I couldn't agree more with you, except the bit where you say you are deeply ashamed to be that person! I personally think a lot of the parenting style out there has been a misinterpretation of studies or theories that have been received in recent years. For example, I understand its been shown over and over that a child who had no agency in their life will feel very bitter as an adult, likewise a child who had too much responsibility will feel insecure as an adult, so we need a balance between these two extremes. But children are not capable of making big choices, we need to encourage little ones, like - we are fingerpainting right now, choose a colour you like. You don't want to fingerpaint, fine just sit there and colour on this page or watch, but you don't get to run around because its fingerpainting time. I work with young children (3-5) and its very much a small choice within an adult led structure, if that makes sense. Children are not capable of deciding big things, they are not logical or reasonable and its terribly unfair to expect them to be. Another thing all these studies show is that children benefit from life skills and independence. 'Serving' them leaves them feeling useless so they act out, they need to have jobs to do and learn to have pride in them, but parents these days seem to miss this part of it. We see children who can have a full debate about the merits of fingerpainting but don't know how to pull up their underpants! There is a huge amount of evidence that children need to engage more in outdoor risky play and learn to negotiate with peers without adults, yet this element is often ignored by overbearing parents who want to wrap children in cotton wool. really feel that these new parenting methods have some merit but society has chosen to follow some elements but not others, none of which makes any sense!!!

I am mid 40s and honestly feel like the good times are over. I feel that the smart phone has brought about more problems than any other invention in a really long time. I get the irony of me posting this online BTW! The addiction of phones, pressures of social media and loss of concentration are to name but a few. We don't allow our kids play in the woods but we provide them with unlimited hardcore pornography by 12. We provide them with a form of communication (social media) that we know to be harmful and then moan about the lack of resources for mental health services. We eat crappy diets, overuse screens then complain that everyone is impatient. I really think western society is falling apart in many ways and I dread to think of what the young generation will be like when they are the tax payers and I'm elderly. These views make me sound like I'm a cranky old woman already, I know.

But obedience is no longer regarded as an important learning target for children

I wouldn't look after him tbh. He's just rude and your DD encourages it.

I'm 30 odd years younger than you and my mum would have removed the plug from the bath and dragged me out.

Most of the shocking insolent behaviour from children you see talked about on these threads would have been dealt with by a slapped backside in our youth. We wouldn't have dared much of the time.

Not saying it was right. However neither is making excuses for children's bad behaviour either.

I agree with you op.
There is a mismatch between this type of parenting style, and the irate angry driving which is becoming more common. Most of these irate drivers will be parents, yet they believe in this ‘be kind’ mantra. Hmmmm they are not practicing it though!
As for your dd, I would say if she expects you to provide childcare then she will have to suck up your parenting style. Obviously your dd can have the final say on major issues but if she wants you to provide any sort of childcare then she should be far more respectful.
All children need boundaries, without exception. Instilling boundaries does not mean being cruel, it is guiding children who do not have the capacity to make decisions themselves.

I am a similar age to the OP and completely agree.
Ps I would simply have pulled the plug out of the bath lol.

I’m SO PLEASED you started this thread. I’ve been feeling more and more adrift from the world, and this thread has really helped.

I’m on a work-related FB group where people post real-life case studies and journalism pitches. The AMOUNT of people who kick off about story ideas that don’t explicitly match their own life experiences is really weird. The urge for inclusivity seems all-encompassing.

Having teenage DC doesn’t help either. They make me feel like all my opinions are archaic. Luckily my DH is a right grumpy old bastard so we can joyously bitch about how the whole world’s insane together.

@MereDintofPandiculation I know that obedience is no longer important to many children. However, when my children were small I told them that it was also a matter of safety that they come when we call for them. What if there is a dangerous person nearby and we have seen him but they have not? We can't shout to them "There is a man with a knife" as that will draw attention to them or all of us.

My daughter went abroad with her school last year and said she would really wish that her classmates had learned the same thing. She was walking with two girlfriends and a grown man started saying inappropriate things to them and was clearly trying to herd them in a certain direction. My daughter had to drag her two friends in the opposite direction and then later sit them down and explain to them about red flags and how to be safe.

(But other than their ability to actually come when you call for them, I would not define my kids as "obedient". Their level of sarcasm quite hinders it. But they are lovely and do help around the house a lot. Often without being asked. Can't complain about their grades either.)

Next time just pull the plug and say yes we all have choices, and I'm choosing this

I’m in my late 40s OP and worry about exactly the same thing! I’m now an older / senior manager at work, and whether I like it or not, the young graduates coming in do have different expectations and tbh behind the scenes I really struggle with it sometimes - I would never have dreamed of saying to a boss ‘no, I’m not doing that’ I also find they expect to be praised and rewarded / promoted for doing their actual job, rather than going above and beyond

However, part of me admires them for having boundaries and expecting more (whilst seething behind the scenes and going wtf?!) as with many things, I’ve pondered how you meet in the middle, and accommodate both opinions / lived experiences

i see the same amongst younger parents at school gate, parties etc (I’m a geriatric mum according to NHS, lol) there’s a devolvement of responsibility - everyone wants something done, but only if they don’t have to do it, including parenting. I’ve regularly bollocked other people’s kids when they’re being unsafe or destructive much to the shock of most people - one parents evening at school where we could take the kids in, one of the kids (reception age) was climbing all over the furniture, climbed up over the seats over my bag and coat (despite there being space elsewhere) and I told them off. Parents were sat opposite not with the teacher yet, watching him do it, not a word was said. Same played out with at least 4 other kids and the HT was disciplining them whilst parents sat there like lemons.

ive definitely found getting out of my echo chamber has helped, even if I don’t agree with it. I suspect I’m going to end up in grumpy old woman territory too. I think the fact we realise this is a possibility means we’ll do a lot to avoid being a curmudgeon

Ot if he wants a story read to him. No I don't feel like it and I have a choice.

This. The six year old (rather impressively!) was just pulling off a new spin on trying to get his own way. I have an 11 year old and am 51. I’m certainly not bringing him up the way I was.