Page 22 | to think the UK has become awful?

ma1formed · 2023-09-13T19:26:22+00:00

I can't pinpoint when, but it feels like everything that was once pretty good is now quite awful So expensive No doctors Uni costs for kids insane Terrible rent / can't buy a house Everyone seems quite unpleasant or racist Is it just me?

Crapsummer2023 · 14/09/2023 23:25

Thementalloadisreal · 13/09/2023 20:35

I expect things have always been awful in some ways or others, but we have much more access to the details of the awfulness now.

Minimising bollocks. It’s not because I have access to the net why I know things have gone to shit in recent years, I’m experiencing it. Every time I bump through a pothole, see a very mentally unwell person staggering around, or have to think twice before I allow DC to go into British sea water (I don’t), I’m reminded.

foxxymoron · 14/09/2023 23:27

LuluBlakey1 · 14/09/2023 12:06

It is the work of a generation- not a decade. 25-30 years. It's about re-establishing a culture in this country that is based on:
Treating the environment and nature with respect- animals and waterways and land and the air we breathe.
Teaching the next generation how to parent children properly- poor parenting is a huge part of our problems.
Everyone well enough to should contribute to our communities. Everyone- run a local sports club, coach at one, volunteer for a charity, participate in clean-ups of beaches, parks etc- whatever it is. It should be part of our psyche that we do that.
We should run community classes/groups in things that encourage togetherness and mental well-being as well as teaching skills- art, crafts, fitness, walking, decorating, dressmaking, a MFL, sewing, camping, cycle maintainance and safety, gardening/growing/
allotments (anything) Can't have an allotment anywhere where we live because waiting list is 5 years- we need more.
Making people pay their way- through fair taxation (we all should pay more and those earning the most and big business should pay much more).
Reducing the 'benefits' culture that exists. Benefits should never be a choice as a way of living- it is now for far too many.
Being much more interventionist about what we allow to be imported and what we allow industries to produce. At the minute we allow any old shit to be imported and any old shit to be produced. Plastic tat and complete rubbish that ends up dumped and in landfill.
Removing the drain of public monies into private industries. There are things that should be nationalised to protect our standards and ensure funding is spent improving standards and not stripped out as profit. Adult social care, nurseries, all education, health care, dentistry, power, water.
Financial regulation of companies should be much stricter.
There should be absolutely no tax benefit to being rich, and nowhere to hide wealth.
There should be a wealth tax on property, paid annually instead of council tax. 0.5% of a property's value annually- with single person discount remaining in place.
Inheritance tax MUST be paid. Up the starting point to £1 million but on anything above it must be paid by everyone. It is currently paid by very few.
Jobs should not come with perks outside of a salary. People should pay their way.
Salaries paid to CEOs should be limited. It's disgusting what we pay hospital managers.
If we want decent public services, we have to find ways of paying for them.
Company accounts and pay outs to shareholders should be regulated. No shareholders should be allowed to strip money from employees pension funds.
Get rid of 'fast food'. It is nothing but a health issue and a pollutant of our environment.
Grow food. Why do we import apples? We can grow our own apples but we don't. We fly them in from round the world. We grew the best apples in the world and a huge range.It is capable of being a big industry. But we are too lazy to pick them.
We need standards in workmanship- they are shit. There are no real apprenticeships where young people are taught high quality skills. Brickie apprentices follow idle, sloppy builders around who can't be bothered to teach them skills. Same with most trades. There was a time our building standards were envied - not now.
Give up the idea that going to university is the be-all for everyone. It osn't. Most people would be much better off learning the skills we need to improve our future- in new power industries for example, market gardening, environmental protection,

Limit shit university courses- 'forensic science', 'sports science', 'cosmetology'. Waste of time.
Lower the grades required for medicine- the teenagers I have taught who would have been excellent Drs but got 2 As and a B at A level and didn't get in had other skills - with people- that many who do qualify don't have. They would have coped academically with support- universities need to provide tailored academic and study support to medics to help more qualify.
Do a deal for medicine, nursing, teaching - no tuition fees but you work full-time in this country for 10 years from the date you fully qualify or you pay your fees back.
Reduce the number of cars built- noone needs a new car every year or two years. It's environmentally damaging to produce so many.
The rich need to expect to make less wealth. That's the bottom line. At the minute we are all, and our environment, exploited by the most wealthy making money from us and from the state and not doing everything they can to contribute.

Show quote history

Quite a lot to unpack here, some good points, granted, but most of it absolute guff which is completely detached from reality. But this bit in particular has me howling:

Limit shit university courses- 'forensic science', 'sports science', 'cosmetology'. Waste of time.

I mean, do you know what a forensic scientist actually does?

Reducing the 'benefits' culture that exists. Benefits should never be a choice as a way of living- it is now for far too many.

I think what you meant to say was, pay workers a decent wage so they don't need to top-up their salaries with benefits just to get by, no?

givemeasunnyday · 15/09/2023 00:12

Louloulouenna · 14/09/2023 21:40

@givemeasunnyday I divide my time between Australia and the UK and don’t recognise this description at all. I have elderly parents in Australia and in-laws in the UK and there is no comparison, the care in Australia is infinitely better.

And for those with private health insurance in Australia the cost is not generally regarded as excessive. The £180bn annual cost of the NHS to the taxpayer is not good value in terms of health outcomes.

I agree with you. The first part of my post was a quote from the OP.

verdantverdure · 15/09/2023 01:23

That "Australia style points based immigration system" has screwed our job market though hasn't it?

We can all agree on that I imagine.

What did they think would happen when they inflicted it on an economy that needed care workers and fruit pickers but care workers and fruit pickers would never get enough "points"?

Original poster

ma1formed · 15/09/2023 02:08

I have an Australian friend. His Mum was terminally ill and needed hospice care, but survived longer than the insurance limit so they had to pay £26,000 for her to continue there. Had to sell their house.

That might sound "superior" to you, but 10 years ago the NHS was the top of the OECD chary and nobody got cancer and had to pay tens of thousands of pounds.

I'd prefer that thanks!

OP posts:

Original poster

ma1formed · 15/09/2023 02:26

It actually really irritates me when people say systems like Australia are better. The NHS was brilliant before it got ground into the ground- 10 years ago it was on par with the US for outcomes.

This false narrative of "oh Australia is better" is exactly the logic they will use to extend private control of healthcare in Britain, and anyone who let's it happen is a fool.

Not only because in Australia people earn massively more money, but because it really is only good if you've got money.

Heres an article on a report explaining that even with the most top notch health insurance, if you get seriously ill - cancer or similar, you have to pay. This lady in the article had to pay $30,000

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/apr/05/breast-cancer-patients-facing-health-cover-gaps-of-more-than-10000-survey-shows

Private health companies aren't in the game to save lives. They're in it to make MONEY and as well as having to pay roughly $3000 a tear for health insurance (imagine having to pay for a whole family)....18% of Australia's healthcare expenditure is out of pocket expenses.

My son had a tumour 3 years ago. Not cancer thank God, but very, very complex surgery to remove it. I can't imagine how I'd have dealt with a £10,000 bill. I wouldn't have had the money.

I just don't understand why anyone in their right mind would support that. The NHS 10 years ago was the best health service in the world.

Breast cancer patients facing health cover gaps of more than $10,000, survey shows

Out-of-pocket expenses prompt calls for inquiry into private health insurance in Australia

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2018/apr/05/breast-cancer-patients-facing-health-cover-gaps-of-more-than-10000-survey-shows

OP posts:

Catsmere · 15/09/2023 02:30

Australians earn massively more money? What industries are you thinking of, OP? I was never on minimum wage but even in the public service never earned enough to rent my own home.

Brightandshining · 15/09/2023 02:38

I think it's certainly got a bit shitter due to our terrible government.. however I'd say its still amongst the top 10 places to live in the world. I have to remind myself how lucky I am to be in this country sometimes. The climate, the level of safety and comfort I live in... the workers rights, the protected holidays, the free museums and galleries, the parks and countryside, the public footpaths, the transport system (granted not always great but has massive plus points, I can get pretty much anywhere in the UK from my little town on public transport, not something possible in many parts of the world) access to a variety of foods, culturally diverse and fairly free in terms of belief, the libraries, the access to culture, free at point of access healthcare
UK has its flaws and certainly these are more difficult times than I'm used to but I'm still not at the point where I'd leave
I think about Norway alot but let's be honest now I'd not stand a cats chance in Hell of becoming fluent in that language

Lizzieregina · 15/09/2023 03:02

@ma1formed I can’t agree with you more that you don’t want the UK to go to a for profit healthcare system. You people there need to fight tooth and nail to save and improve the NHS.

Today I saw the bill for my DH’s surgeon, $20500, the anesthetist $11,000, the MRI $6000, and that’s just the beginning. We have what’s known as “Cadillac” insurance, so most of it will be paid for, but I’ve already seen a $500 charge that the insurance is not paying because they don’t agree with it. That’s how it works when it’s all private, the insurance gets to decide what they’re going to pay for whether or not an actual doctor says it’s necessary. They also decide how much they’re going to pay, and people with bad or no health insurance get screwed, and even people like us, who have good insurance will be out thousands of dollars.

picturethispatsy · 15/09/2023 04:11

I agree with both ‘points of view’ on here in that I agree quality of life has gone down for far too many people. Young people today have a much much harder time getting a similar lifestyle to their parents at the same age. Today on average a house costs 9x average earnings. In the 1960s/1970s it was only 3x.
Cost of living has gone up exponentially and earnings not increasing in line.
Too many people can’t afford to enjoy life as much anymore, things like holidays have become luxuries.
Also less investment in public services and shit stuff happening like crap in waterways and potholes in roads.

However, I also agree that UK is still one of the best places to live in the world. No we don’t have the beautiful manners of the Japanese (tho to be fair our manners are still better than most countries) yes we have too many people on benefits, too much unemployment, COL, Brexit (ugh) etc etc but we live in one of the free-est most tolerant countries in the world (caveat that yes there are some racist people still) with the best model of health care anywhere. I’m not saying it’s not got its faults, but my experiences of the nhs have been exceptional.

picturethispatsy · 15/09/2023 05:22

Oh and it’s one of the safest countries and we have the most temperate climates of almost anywhere in the world thanks to the Gulf Stream.

Tumbleweed101 · 15/09/2023 06:42

I think some of it is national attitude. I was in the US for their Independence Day and you could feel the pride most of those people felt in their country and culture. I know things there vary according to state but everywhere I went it was clean, the National Park I went to had easy access to all the prime attractions and their were public facilities such as toilets everywhere even outside the park.

I’m not going to pretend it is perfect. Food prices were much higher than I remember from my last visit. It is still hard for many to get housing etc but there is a real sense of you strive for what you want. I think here we have lost some of that push in our way of thinking for all kind of reasons.

And yes, the UK is a harsher place to live in that when I was growing up and when I was raising my eldest children. Our attitude is very much everyone for themselves. Parents are made to feel that children are a life choice rather than the next generation of our society and support is rapidly reducing. Both parents have to work to survive whereas there was once more support for families. Just things like that . Public facilities such as toilets are hard to find, streets are dirtier, high st is closing down due to high rents and parking costs. Just crazy.

Simonjt · 15/09/2023 07:01

ma1formed · 15/09/2023 02:08

I have an Australian friend. His Mum was terminally ill and needed hospice care, but survived longer than the insurance limit so they had to pay £26,000 for her to continue there. Had to sell their house.

That might sound "superior" to you, but 10 years ago the NHS was the top of the OECD chary and nobody got cancer and had to pay tens of thousands of pounds.

I'd prefer that thanks!

When I was at university a course mate was terminally ill with pancreatic cancer, he couldn’t get a hospice bed, instead he was on a surgical ward in hospital in a bay, he wasn’t even in a side room. He wasn’t given adequate pain relief, he would sometimes go days without anyone, he was shouted at by staff when his bag would burst due to being over full, he died from sepsis caused by untreated bed sores as staff weren’t turning him. This was in 2014. You don’t need to pay any top ups no, but you die a slow painful death due to neglect instead.

Wanderingllama · 15/09/2023 07:13

The NHS 10 years ago was the best health service in the world.

It was not. For decades it was famous abroad for "oh, broken leg? Nah, take paracetamol and see if it settles" jokes.

Alexandra2001 · 15/09/2023 07:14

Louloulouenna · 14/09/2023 22:01

@Alexandra2001 Both the French and German systems are insurance based

The French system is funded through taxation, on business and workers.

Germany has a series of complex and regional insurance bodies, both private and public but still funded via pay roll deductions.

There are also both universal, whether you ve paid in or not... when people like you say "They are insurance based ..." you imply they are like signing up to PPP Axa or BUPA, nothing could be further from the truth.

LuluBlakey1 · 15/09/2023 08:08

Interesting piece in this morning's Guardian about attitudes of parents in Britain as to what is important to teach children.
https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/sep/15/britons-place-low-value-on-teaching-children-obedience-study-finds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

Britons place low value on teaching children obedience, study finds

British parents place higher importance on independence and imagination, according to study of 24 countries

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2023/sep/15/britons-place-low-value-on-teaching-children-obedience-study-finds?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

LuluBlakey1 · 15/09/2023 08:11

Wanderingllama · 15/09/2023 07:13

The NHS 10 years ago was the best health service in the world.

It was not. For decades it was famous abroad for "oh, broken leg? Nah, take paracetamol and see if it settles" jokes.

Hardly empirical evidence.

Iamalittleteapot · 15/09/2023 08:13

Wanderingllama · 15/09/2023 07:13

The NHS 10 years ago was the best health service in the world.

It was not. For decades it was famous abroad for "oh, broken leg? Nah, take paracetamol and see if it settles" jokes.

When I had my daughter 20 years ago, the maternity service and care I received was abysmal. Staff couldn't care less and I was left alone for a long time during labour.

Trixiefirecracker · 15/09/2023 08:25

Tumbleweed101 · 15/09/2023 06:42

I think some of it is national attitude. I was in the US for their Independence Day and you could feel the pride most of those people felt in their country and culture. I know things there vary according to state but everywhere I went it was clean, the National Park I went to had easy access to all the prime attractions and their were public facilities such as toilets everywhere even outside the park.

I’m not going to pretend it is perfect. Food prices were much higher than I remember from my last visit. It is still hard for many to get housing etc but there is a real sense of you strive for what you want. I think here we have lost some of that push in our way of thinking for all kind of reasons.

And yes, the UK is a harsher place to live in that when I was growing up and when I was raising my eldest children. Our attitude is very much everyone for themselves. Parents are made to feel that children are a life choice rather than the next generation of our society and support is rapidly reducing. Both parents have to work to survive whereas there was once more support for families. Just things like that . Public facilities such as toilets are hard to find, streets are dirtier, high st is closing down due to high rents and parking costs. Just crazy.

Thats purely anecdotal though, isn’t it and not my experience of some parts of US. Have you been to San Francisco for example?! It’s carnage, so much poverty, drugs, prostitution, dirt, danger…. There are huge parts of America that are very troubled indeed and not pleasant to be in. Most countries have these areas, U.K. as well. We are lucky to live in a national park here and it’s mostly very well looked after and clean and beautiful but doesn’t mean other areas are not!

Louloulouenna · 15/09/2023 08:32

@Alexandra2001 I don’t understand why you or anyone else would assume an insurance based health system involves private health insurance which depends on a profit motive. The German and French system are both insurance based (the French is based on statutory insurance). This is a common model for successful health systems around the world.

Teddleshon · 15/09/2023 08:38

@ma1formed Palliative / hospice care is mostly free in Australia. Less than half of Australians have private health insurance and if you don’t, you rely on a relatively basic level of care which is not dissimilar to the NHS. It sounds like your friend was possibly in a private facility for which insurance coverage eventually ran out. They should have been able to switch to a public facility like in the UK, although I know at the moment these can can be difficult to get in the NH S.

Teddleshon · 15/09/2023 08:45

It also happens in the UK that patients who have BUPA run out of cover and have to leave their lovely private facilities etc or pay.

Highandlows · 15/09/2023 08:51

Yes, the paracetamol was the running joke even 20years ago. The preventive measures were always awful. Better care once cancer or diseases were confirmed and now nothing seem to work. However, some areas are better than others.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 15/09/2023 09:44

the transport system (granted not always great but has massive plus points, I can get pretty much anywhere in the UK from my little town on public transport

Have you tried using Trans-Pennine Express? You’d get nowhere. Transport in the north is appalling! All the big cities should be linked like all the suburbs of London are linked. Car useage is much higher in the north due to shit public transport. Our bus services ( in a big northern city) we’re cut in half earlier this year. It’s cheaper to park a car than to get a bus. I can find NO plus points in the transport system.

If doesn’t work, is hugely expensive, doesn’t go where it is needed, is insufficient and inefficient. Basically it’s just crap. Unless you live in SE. Because that’s the only area that’s ‘important’ in the U.K. Londoners get free transport over 60. How lovely for them to go and see the sights. Every where else gets it ( for what it’s worth) at 67.

Kendodd · 15/09/2023 10:18

I think one thing really crippling the UK is high land and house prices. It makes everything so much more expensive and ties up such a lot of the country's money.