Page 21 | to think the UK has become awful?

ma1formed · 2023-09-13T19:26:22+00:00

I can't pinpoint when, but it feels like everything that was once pretty good is now quite awful So expensive No doctors Uni costs for kids insane Terrible rent / can't buy a house Everyone seems quite unpleasant or racist Is it just me?

BloodyHellKen · 14/09/2023 16:07

Charlotteowensdodgydad · 14/09/2023 14:41

@BloodyHellKen telling that you didn’t answer the question did you ?
And surely the OP meant now.
Why are you policing where the OP posts her thread ? Everyone knows AIBU and chat get the most footfall. Many PP are quite happy to attribute blame to the current shower for the decline of the UK not just me.

I did answer the question.

The OP asked if I thought the UK had become awful and I said from my experience (over 50+ years) things go up and down and that I agreed with some things in her list, but not others.

Just because I didn't drag politics into it and give the answer you would like to read to support your own bias doesn't mean my opinion is any less valid.

Ringpeace · 14/09/2023 16:15

Deluded.

I lived in Germany for a long time. I'm still a frequent visitor.

For the most part Germany is doing far better than the UK and the 'public realm' is in a much better state.

German towns and cities are in the main far less run down than their British counterparts.

verdantverdure · 14/09/2023 16:27

Ringpeace · 14/09/2023 16:15

Deluded.

I lived in Germany for a long time. I'm still a frequent visitor.

For the most part Germany is doing far better than the UK and the 'public realm' is in a much better state.

German towns and cities are in the main far less run down than their British counterparts.

From what I understand the German government has put money into infrastructure such as future-proofing the energy sector to benefit the
German people and the German economy in the long run.

The current U.K. government just gives our country's money to their mates and we have nothing to show for it.

My husband works across Europe and he and his mates go to the Nurburgring every year to race, and he says the infrastructure contrast with the U.K. is possibly the strongest in Germany. (Although he also has complimentary comments about Austrian, Swiss and Italian public transport.)

YouHaveAnArse · 14/09/2023 16:30

"This morning a couple threw a pile of fast food stuff from their car window in Seaton Delaval. They were mid 30s I'd say, driving an old black Range Rover, she was orange faced, he had a shaved head. Both had tattooed arms. What's going on with adults who behave like that?"

While I agree with you about the littering being vile behaviour, what's with the detailed description of their appearance?

verdantverdure · 14/09/2023 16:45

The man we saw bellowing racist abuse at the woman behind the newsagent counter was a well spoken white haired OAP in a fairisle sweater and drove a nice car with a sticker about donkeys and ponies on it. He had also double parked, blocking one lane of the small country road, instead of pulling in.

I expect he looked nice when he wasn't frothing.

User135644 · 14/09/2023 17:45

bombastix · 13/09/2023 22:21

Went to lunch party reunion at the weekend. Well heeled people. The bile at the Tories was everywhere. It wasn't about tax it was about how shit they had been and are.

10 years ago it was nowhere near so anti. A mix of opinions. Now it's something like middle class rage.

It's a Tory country. England loves its Tories and is a nation of cap doffers.

Problem is after the Tories have been in for 10-15 years they realise everything has gone to shit and want them out. But they'll vote them back again, just not next election.

User135644 · 14/09/2023 17:48

anotherside · 13/09/2023 22:17

@StarDolphins

Labour will be in next & things won’t improve

The Labour Party as an electoral force has been dead for decades. The choice we have is Tory or Tory lite. Tory economics or Tory economics (lite). Neither Tory nor Tory lite are the answer - which is why the best countries to live in Europe largely abstain from governments as right wing as the Tories.

FPTP voting doesn't help.

The Tories feel comfortable self imploding (now, mid-90s) when the alternative is a very centrist and moderate Labour government that aren't actually going to change much. If Corbyn or even Ed Milliband was Labour leader promising radical change they'd be holding it together and the right wing press would be rallying round them and slaughtering Labour. As it is they'll be able to stomach Starmer, who wouldn't be out of place as a Conservative PM (albeit in the Cameron mould).

We need PR.

Maatandosiris · 14/09/2023 18:04

Well I look at it differently

most people are really nice

the Uk is substantially less racist than many other countries

we have a free at point of use healthcare system - needs a massive shake up though but still better than many other countries

Uni costs are a lot more affordable than many countries and we have some of the best education establishments in the world

Housing costs would be better if we cut down the increase in population, many countries have the same issue.

inflation has hit world wide

on top of that we have fantastic countryside and coasts, incredibly interesting history

Good job opportunities

Relatively good standard of living

A broad range of culture on tap, much of it is free

Our temperate climate means we don’t suffer tropical diseases, but can grow a wide range of food

We have good education opportunities for children

we have freedom we don’t risk being shot for saying we don’t agree with the government

The UK is an amazing place to live. Every day people risk their lives to get here.

It isn’t just you, it’s become fashionable to slag off the UK.

But living here, your one of the luckiest people in the world.

Teddleshon · 14/09/2023 18:29

Totally agree with your final line @Maatandosiris . I’m an Aussie and am so grateful to be able to live in the UK.

DownNative · 14/09/2023 18:42

Ilikeicecream · 14/09/2023 13:04

Their question is about the UK as a whole AND overall, but NOT about how people feel at the anecdotal, individual level.

What is an overall country if you remove the experience of vast majority of people living there?

The OPs question is "AIBU to think the UK has become awful?".

While I agree awful is a strong word, but becoming awful in the context of OP, is UK deteriorating.

You must be in a very comfortable position, maybe a landowner or just prefer to be in denial.

UK had declined in the rating you mentioned. And has managed to stay in top10 because it did very well on criterias like power, cultural attractiveness, these parameters are not as important to an average Joe. Access to good healthcare, education, decent wages to afford decent lifestyle, safety and clean air and water are more important. Just a few days ago, Liverpool Council declared itself bankrupt 🙄

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I said at the anecdotal, individual. That means people's perception of how things appear to them.

Anecdotes such as throughout the thread aren't reliable indicators as to whether a country is declining or the reverse.

That's why studies such as the aforementioned rankings hold weight with methodology made clear.

The UK declined SLIGHTLY in the rankings I provided between 2022 and 2023. I note you did not refer to entrepreneurship which the authors stated is how governments spread wealth to the citizens. UK ranked 4th in that. Agility and Social Purpose are also important to citizens - 13th and 15th respectively.

Whichever way you cut it, the UK ranks higher than most of the World and most Europe on individual metrics such as entrepreneurship, cultural power, agility and social purpose, etc. Gives us an overall 9th ranking.

Basically, a lot of anecdotes in the thread are out of step with rankings of countries. People are more likely to post about problems than successes on forums such as this one as well.

Answer is still no to OPs question. 🤷‍♂️

TeenLifeMum · 14/09/2023 20:39

@YouHaveAnArse nope, council likely to declare bankruptcy and dh 2 week wait cancer referral still not through since early July. I just like to focus on the positives more than the negatives I can’t change.

cheapest 3 bed house to rent is £1300 (which is nuts).

givemeasunnyday · 14/09/2023 20:47

Alexandra2001 · 14/09/2023 12:44

You keep clinging to the overall but this wasn't a survey done of british peoples views was it? and if you look at the things that matter, such as Quality of life, the UK from your own link, is not good at all.

What matters is peoples lived experiences and when it comes to soooo many things, its shite.. Roads, GP appts, NHS waiting lists, Schools, council services.. all in decline.

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I don't actually live in the UK, but have been following this with interest.

However, while I can't comment regarding the OP's question I just wanted to say that I agree with this. So many on MN spend so much time looking for survey results/statistics to prove their point, and people's lived experiences are just shrugged off as being meaningless. I have NEVER, in my whole 64 years, been asked my opinion in any survey, and nor have any of my friends, so I have not a lot of faith in the end result of these. When a vast majority of average people are complaining about something that means a lot more to me than a 'best country to live in' type ranking. A poster on MN once threw 'facts' at me about my own country which were completely erroneous - just because something is published does not make it true. I can't help but wonder if this is part of the ills of the world - ordinary people are ignored because their views are no longer relevant as 'facts/figures' are seen as the absolute truth, and people spend far too much time assembling them rather than actually speaking to people about their issues instead of asking a few yes/no questions.

Seychal · 14/09/2023 20:55

ginandtonicwithlimes · 14/09/2023 09:14

They would be considered wealthy in Hull.

Show quote history

That was my point. Try being as opposed to try living.

Seychal · 14/09/2023 21:01

LuluBlakey1 · 14/09/2023 12:06

It is the work of a generation- not a decade. 25-30 years. It's about re-establishing a culture in this country that is based on:
Treating the environment and nature with respect- animals and waterways and land and the air we breathe.
Teaching the next generation how to parent children properly- poor parenting is a huge part of our problems.
Everyone well enough to should contribute to our communities. Everyone- run a local sports club, coach at one, volunteer for a charity, participate in clean-ups of beaches, parks etc- whatever it is. It should be part of our psyche that we do that.
We should run community classes/groups in things that encourage togetherness and mental well-being as well as teaching skills- art, crafts, fitness, walking, decorating, dressmaking, a MFL, sewing, camping, cycle maintainance and safety, gardening/growing/
allotments (anything) Can't have an allotment anywhere where we live because waiting list is 5 years- we need more.
Making people pay their way- through fair taxation (we all should pay more and those earning the most and big business should pay much more).
Reducing the 'benefits' culture that exists. Benefits should never be a choice as a way of living- it is now for far too many.
Being much more interventionist about what we allow to be imported and what we allow industries to produce. At the minute we allow any old shit to be imported and any old shit to be produced. Plastic tat and complete rubbish that ends up dumped and in landfill.
Removing the drain of public monies into private industries. There are things that should be nationalised to protect our standards and ensure funding is spent improving standards and not stripped out as profit. Adult social care, nurseries, all education, health care, dentistry, power, water.
Financial regulation of companies should be much stricter.
There should be absolutely no tax benefit to being rich, and nowhere to hide wealth.
There should be a wealth tax on property, paid annually instead of council tax. 0.5% of a property's value annually- with single person discount remaining in place.
Inheritance tax MUST be paid. Up the starting point to £1 million but on anything above it must be paid by everyone. It is currently paid by very few.
Jobs should not come with perks outside of a salary. People should pay their way.
Salaries paid to CEOs should be limited. It's disgusting what we pay hospital managers.
If we want decent public services, we have to find ways of paying for them.
Company accounts and pay outs to shareholders should be regulated. No shareholders should be allowed to strip money from employees pension funds.
Get rid of 'fast food'. It is nothing but a health issue and a pollutant of our environment.
Grow food. Why do we import apples? We can grow our own apples but we don't. We fly them in from round the world. We grew the best apples in the world and a huge range.It is capable of being a big industry. But we are too lazy to pick them.
We need standards in workmanship- they are shit. There are no real apprenticeships where young people are taught high quality skills. Brickie apprentices follow idle, sloppy builders around who can't be bothered to teach them skills. Same with most trades. There was a time our building standards were envied - not now.
Give up the idea that going to university is the be-all for everyone. It osn't. Most people would be much better off learning the skills we need to improve our future- in new power industries for example, market gardening, environmental protection,

Limit shit university courses- 'forensic science', 'sports science', 'cosmetology'. Waste of time.
Lower the grades required for medicine- the teenagers I have taught who would have been excellent Drs but got 2 As and a B at A level and didn't get in had other skills - with people- that many who do qualify don't have. They would have coped academically with support- universities need to provide tailored academic and study support to medics to help more qualify.
Do a deal for medicine, nursing, teaching - no tuition fees but you work full-time in this country for 10 years from the date you fully qualify or you pay your fees back.
Reduce the number of cars built- noone needs a new car every year or two years. It's environmentally damaging to produce so many.
The rich need to expect to make less wealth. That's the bottom line. At the minute we are all, and our environment, exploited by the most wealthy making money from us and from the state and not doing everything they can to contribute.

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A fantastic post again. Thank you. ⭐

givemeasunnyday · 14/09/2023 21:05

Australia's system is awful in my opinion. They pay hugely more than we do and only get basic coverage if not. Their insurance costs can be eye watering. Even those insured are often bankrupted by medical expenses as the insurer won't cover it or they are offered sub standard care if they can't afford to pay. I've read heartbreaking stories. Not as bad as America, but in my opinion awful.

Are you being serious? I know a lot of people who live in Australia - not one of them has ever complained about their health system, and it is a lot more efficient than the NHS appears to be.

RachelTaks · 14/09/2023 21:16

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Alexandra2001 · 14/09/2023 21:40

Teddleshon · 14/09/2023 12:46

@Tambatamba afraid the facts don’t support your statement that the Tories have stripped and stripped the NHS. Spending on the NHS has been above the OECD average in terms of percentage of GDP for well over 5 years now. Most people accept that the problems with the NHS are well beyond financial.

NHS spending was protected under Austerity.

Total nonsense.

NHS spending per capita way below EU average, not protected during Austerity and no, its not accepted at all, just by Tory central office.

But if the issues really are nothing to do with finance, why after 13 years, haven't the Tories sorted it?

Instead, waiting lists have just grown longer n longer & before Covid, strikes or Ukraine.

Louloulouenna · 14/09/2023 21:40

@givemeasunnyday I divide my time between Australia and the UK and don’t recognise this description at all. I have elderly parents in Australia and in-laws in the UK and there is no comparison, the care in Australia is infinitely better.

And for those with private health insurance in Australia the cost is not generally regarded as excessive. The £180bn annual cost of the NHS to the taxpayer is not good value in terms of health outcomes.

Alexandra2001 · 14/09/2023 21:50

Teddleshon · 14/09/2023 13:19

@ma1formed I agree that Germany (and France) have far better health systems and outcomes than the UK but both are an insurance based system. As are the more successful health systems around the world such as Australia.

Given the NHS budget is fast approaching £200bn an 8% or so annual increase in spending is just unaffordable. Particularly now that almost half of UK households pay no income tax.

German and French systems are totally different but neither are private insurance based, they are tax payer funded models, as is most of Europe, with tops available if you so wish.
Germany is extremely complex.

France The insurance system is funded primarily by payroll taxes (paid by employers and employees), a national income tax, and tax levies on certain industries and products (Commonwealth Fund)

People in UK, are outside of income tax because wages have been held down for so long.... Austerity yet again.

Charlotteowensdodgydad · 14/09/2023 21:58

@LuluBlakey1 some of your suggestions are absolutely tone deaf and not based on reality. Some of them are predicated on the fact that you probably live somewhere nice where folk are able to help in the community in their spare time and not be working two NMW jobs to pay their way.
Benefits is a way of life you say. Well yes hard working people need a top up from the government because their pay is too low to survive on.

Louloulouenna · 14/09/2023 22:01

@Alexandra2001 Both the French and German systems are insurance based

Seychal · 14/09/2023 23:09

NHS spending was protected under Austerity.

This is not true.

Daffodilwoman · 14/09/2023 23:09

I agree with the OP.
I see a lots of slobs. They mill about town making the place look vile. They don’t have any self respect, swearing, drinking from cans, spitting, throwing rubbish and fag ends on the floor. This is at lunch time btw. It makes decent people stay away. Eventually the decent people move away, leaving the slobs to take over.
It’s absolutely shocking that 50% of households do not pay tax, I’m disgusted. Yet most of these people expect hand outs.
No wonder people are fed up and emigrate.
I can’t get a doctor’s appointment yet I am paying into the system.
There was a time when I was happy to pay into the system and the fact that I didn’t need the doctor or hospital was all fine by me. Now I’m older, I don’t feel that way. I feel resentful.
We recently holidayed in another European country and I can say this. The place was spotless. Beautiful, with stylish people. Nobody slobber about looking like scum. Everyone was smartly dressed. Yes I know most of them were tourists but the point remains: I didn’t see anyone wearing sportswear. Everyone had their chest covered up. Men wore linen shirts. Not like here where men take their tops off and walk about with their fat guts on display.

YouHaveAnArse · 14/09/2023 23:17

How odd that people in a country suffering hugely from a cost of living crisis would be more likely to drink, be overweight, or wear cheap, unstylish clothing. How odd that an area people go to on holiday, presumably in a country where there is money to keep things clean and wages are high enough that people can go about their business in expensive and higher maintenance natural fibres, seems nicer than wherever it is you live with all those ghastly slobs effing and jeffing round the town centre.

YouHaveAnArse · 14/09/2023 23:19

@Charlotteowensdodgydad people rarely realise that housing benefit doesn't even cover full rents now, as the 'market rate' councils believe exist is quite some way from the one estate agents charge.