To not believe that my daughter is autistic?

[lionsandtigers21]

I know that may sound bad, but my dd17 seems utterly convinced that she has autism and ADHD and I just don’t buy it. She wasn’t always an easy child, but I don’t remember her having significant sensory issues or huge trouble with socialising. Now she’s a teenager, I think she may be depressed because she self-isolates so much but I think that’s the crux of it. She changed schools a lot as a child and I’ve also had issues in the past, so I accept that that may have caused problems. But I really can’t see how she would fit onto the autism spectrum. Her main argument is that, as a little girl, she would frequently go off on her own to collect stones (her special interest) and talk to herself instead of socialising or playing with toys, but she did definitely also have friends at that age. What she seems to remember as meltdowns seemed to me more like tantrums, and would normally occur if she was taken somewhere she didn’t want to go, although she did have unexplained tantrums as well (usually saying that she wanted to go home when she was already in the house and wanted to go back to being a baby) and I remember that she would cry dramatically as soon as I picked her up from school and all the way home at a certain period. She also told me that she would do things in class that would definitely been deemed socially inappropriate, liking uninhibitedly touching her private area in front of everyone until relatively late on in primary school and ignore the teacher who told her it was inappropriate, but I think a lot of kids are uninhibited? Things that might be considered ‘stimming’ she has always done to an extreme (she once scratched her face so much that I was convinced she had scabies!), but she could definitely make friends at school if she wanted to, even if she liked to be alone sometimes. Sensory-wise, I can’t really remember any issues aside from her hating me resting my head on her shoulder and putting my chin on her head, she also found things like nail filing very uncomfortable to witness. She insists that she struggles with social cues/situations today and engages in ‘masking’ behaviours where she unconsciously finds herself copying the speech and body language of those around her, but don’t we all do that? No one is the exact person at home and at school. She’s done things before that would suggest she’s a bit clueless, like exposing a lie that I told to my parents in a very excruciating situation (which I blamed her for at the time). There’s also more stuff that I could list, but does any of this override her apparent social competence as a child? I think the issues she has today are a result of lack of experience and isolating herself in a dark room rather than autism/ADHD? I don’t know, maybe I’m being facetious. Has anyone experienced this?
Thank you :)

Lots of people told me my dc had ADHD. I dismissed them as I used to do that or I do that

It was dd who came to me with a list of symptoms and asked if I thought they looked like things she did and had been doing as a child
I scanned down them and replied that that list applied to me now and as a child.

DD suggested we all went for an ADHD assessment. 8 weeks later (I live in an area of the country that is the quickest for an adhd assessment) I was walking out of the psychiatrists office clutching my first prescription of ADHD meds

Everyone is on the spectrum somewhere

They really aren't.

I agree that only a doctor can diagnose.
I've been worried that I am but haven't got the mental energy to pursue it. Always been ridiculously shy and self conscious, have an odd accent and look decade's younger than my actual age.
It clearly concerns your DD so please support her even if you have reservations.
I know someone who is very clearly autistic and parents were told about their concerns at school but got angry about it and never pursued it. She is now in her thirties and has struggled massively. With friendships, work life, sensory issues such as clothes being too short for her liking as well as severe anxiety. If she had got support when young I suspect things could have turned out differently.

So you’re basing your whole denial on she was social as a child and had friends?

my son was finally diagnosed with ASD this year after a very thorough assessment at the request of many his private nursery, an early year’s support worker and his gp, he’s 6 and he’s really socialable, he has a few friend at school and loves playing with other kids. None of that means he isn’t on the spectrum.

It honestly sounds like your Dd is to me. But you know she had friends growing up so probably not /s

Just because something's conceptualised as a spectrum disorder doesn't mean the entirety of humanity is on that spectrum. It's a spectrum of different presentations of what seems (given current knowledge) to be a single type of underlying condition, not a line-up of all the humans from most autistic to least autistic.

I'll give you a different example. Some doctors are now thinking of bipolar disorder as a type of spectrum disorder, encompassing the conditions currently known as bipolar 1 (mania and depression), bipolar 2 (hypomania and depression), cyclothymia (hypomania and low mood that doesn't meet the threshold for depression), and even depression alone but with "soft signs" (features that are frequently seen in bipolar depression specifically — these people often respond better to bipolar disorder drugs than depression drugs), with things like different speeds of mood cycling, different patterns of mood changes, or symptoms like psychosis or anxiety, incorporated as part of the diagnosis. It's a big range of people, who have difficulties that can look as though they're completely different conditions, all presenting differently, and with some symptoms only happening in some people. But there seems to be something at the core of all these different experiences that's of the same nature. Therefore, one condition, but with a big spectrum of presentations. A spectrum condition.

Say that became the standard conceptualisation. Somebody tells you that their DD thinks she has bipolar spectrum disorder. They describe symptoms that fit well with this condition (considered a serious mental illness, which means your GP will put you on a special register and conduct annual mental health reviews — much like ASD is considered a significant neurodevelopmental condition). Would you say to them, "Everyone is on the spectrum somewhere. Does it matter?" Or would you understand that the bipolar spectrum is a spectrum of presentations of a diagnosed and significant condition, and not something which must, by virtue of being a spectrum, include everybody?

(And I really hope you wouldn't do that thing people seem happy to do with autism, and say something like, "Well, we're all on the (bipolar) spectrum somewhere, aren't we, after all? I mean doesn't everyone feel happy sometimes and sad at other times? I often feel glum on a Tuesday morning when I think about how much week is left!")

Agree 100%.

Autism is a spectrum. There is no one size fits all. For instance, some autistic children will do absolutely fine making friends, making eye contact etc but others won't do this at all. My brother is autistic, he managed fine with friends when he was young and then as a teenager was diagnosed with autism. I can absolutely see it now as an adult in him and I can see how much he internally struggles with so much. I have a close family member who works with people with autism and similar so they've taught me so much about not taking things at face value. Clearly your daughter has internal struggles. I would take her to the GP or get her some help with her mental health. Do not mock her or make her feel ignored, she will only resent you for it.

While no one here can diagose, I think you're right to be cautious. A lot of people especially teens/early 20s, are self diagnosing based off tiktok videos. Add to that that autism/ADHD seem to be the 'in' diagnosis at the moment. Which does a great disservice to those genuinely affected by autism and/or ADHD.

Oh do be quiet. Do you read the Daily Mail 🤣

Just from the hat you said I think your daughter might have a point . Maybe help her being accessed for a diagnosis ? A professional can help

Apparently, there are a lot of females with undiagnosed autism as they present differently to boys and it can be harder to detect.
Definitely help her to look into this properly.

Something funny is that the way your kid is, is the way your kid is. You can't see them any way other than just 'the way they are'.

My old school friend, who knows a lot about ND for various reasons, was visiting recently, and I was groaning about my kid chewing her clothes all the time. Friend laughed at said "do you not remember the state of your cuffs at school?" And I suddenly remembered I used to do exactly the same thing. Friend then says "It's probably stimming, I mean haven't you ever considered she might be ND as well?", her implication being that obviously I was. I'm not diagnosed, I've been considering the (probability) possibility that I may be ADHD, but had never mentioned it to her. She thought it was so obvious that I must surely already know, whereas to me I'm just me! And DD is just DD.

Sometimes you need outside perspective on this stuff.

I was diagnosed inattentive ADHD and autism at 42. I paid for a private diagnosis with a clinical psychologist/speech therapist team and it wasn’t cheap. They diagnosed both at the same time but would have missed the ADHD if I hadn’t mentioned being unable to focus on anything and noticing that from about 5 years old.

Lots of your daughter’s experiences resonate with me. A diagnosis was helpful for me as for years I felt I was lazy, disorganized, overly senstive, etc. I was also bullied and called these things by teachers at school. Having a name for that and being understood by a professional who was amazed at my acheivements despite my disability was life affirming. Autistics and ADHDers tend to carry around a lot of shame, often coupled with low self esteem. If nothing else hopefully a diagnosis can help her be kinder to herself and she can access support at school/college/uni or at her workplace.

In my experience if people think they are autistic and have done a fair bit of reading of other autistic people’s experiences and it still resonates, they probably are. ADHD is harder to diagnose but there are some great books on it.

In all honesty, your post sounds like you don’t like her very much so maybe work on that rather than worrying about whether you believe her.

I’m pretty sure I am autistic. I have friends. It’s easy to maintain friendships within a certain framework - school, college, work etc. I’m a perfectly nice person. However, I would find it nigh on impossible to make friends outside of ‘enforced friendships’ and find small talk excruciating.

Females are remarkably good at masking autistic traits.

pressed too soon! First use of edit. Thank you for it.

My autistic child has lots of friends! Is incredibly social and in fact, craves time with friends

@lionsandtigers21 - autism, in the late-diagnosed and/or heavy-masking (often the same, but not always), is primarily a condition that affects the internal perception of the world. So...the question is, why do you think you're more qualified to make a judgement on this than she is?

With a parent as dismissive as you seem to be, it's reasonably likely that she's masking even more heavily around you than she is to the rest of the world, so of course you'd have no clue that something else is going on. Hell, even the things she's doing to take a break from all that masking and sensory input - like sitting in a dark, quiet room - are things that almost every autistic person does in order to appear more typical the rest of the time, but you're flipping it to try to make out that's the reason for the problem.

So...why the mental gymnastics to find a variety of different excuses for things she's doing, where there could be a single explanation for all of them? Why not admit that there's even a remote possibility that she's right?

Finally...you ask if anybody else has experienced this. Yes, every late-diagnosed autistic person in the world has experienced this from other people trying to dismiss their lived experience.

EDIT: Missed your reply at the bottom of page 4 - fair play, and well done for taking a moment to reflect and open your mind a bit. Not many can do that.

If you think a teenager would and could lie to professionals to get a diagnosis you are as ignorant about this as you are about most things.

Precisely - in fact, somebody trying to pretend they have a condition like autism or ADHD would be going to great lengths to avoid encountering a professional in a diagnostic setting, for obvious reasons.

I have a number of female friends who are autistic - but honestly you couldn't tell they were autistic if they were having a good day. And even if they were having a bad one you'd likely say mental health issues rather than anything obviously related to autism. I'm glad you're going to support your DD in getting an assessment.

No they are not. Everyone is on a spectrum, let's call it the spectrum of life, but only autistic people are on the autism spectrum. That's why they call it that.

. However, I would find it nigh on impossible to make friends outside of ‘enforced friendships’ and find small talk excruciating.

Aaaah -I have adhd and this description ‘enforced friendships’ explains a lot.
Had friends at school - had friends at college (but not really outside college) and have had almost none since -for decades.
I am now mostly going it alone as that is better than rejection and now I know the reason don’t feel bad about it.

You will not get a remotely balanced response to this on MN OP...

The default response on here is 'how dare you question whether somebody has ASD', that 'the reason half the world is now ND is because we were all too pigheaded in the 80s to recognise that half the world was ND and it has nothing to do with the fact our society is, for many reasons, now much more crap for nurturing a young child and getting crapper and that people are growing up fundamentally unhappy and lacking in resilience as a consequence)

I agree with some pp that say it's very easy (especially as you get older) to make your narrative fit the diagnosis rather than visa versa. I've seen this with a friend's child. They had their child assessed as a teen and told barefaced lies about their child to get a diagnosis. They would deny this but they described a kid who never wanted to make eye contact and who didn't play properly as a child etcetc. I spent a lot of time with this child as a baby/toddler and it's 100% not true. However, the clinician assessing them will go by what they're told. This is one reason diagnosis is going up IMO.

Ultimately you don't really have any say in this though OP. Your dd is almost an adult. If she wishes to seek a diagnosis she will be free to. I would just concentrate on giving her love and support, getting her away from her computer screen and enjoying the true joys in life and just be completely neutral to her about ASD. You love her and support her regardless. Ultimately it probably isn't the key to her inner peace and happiness either way but she'll have to find that out for herself

She […] claims that she has often tried to convince herself that she is exaggerating everything

Same. Both before and after my adult ASD diagnosis, TBH. Less so now, though, almost a decade on. I don't think about it much these days, and in my head I take a fairly neutral view about what I do and don't "have", neurodevelopmentally — though I acknowledge I meet the criteria and that specialists agree (and I can still ruminate on it when I'm mentally unwell). If I need to disclose, I phrase it as "I have an ASD/ADHD diagnosis", which both avoids taking a position on it in terms of correctness or personal identity, and lends it more credibility in a world of self-DX.

I vacillated a fair bit about the whole being-autistic thing, even after I got a solid NHS diagnostic report from a team headed by a highly specialist neurodevelopmental psychiatrist, who had access to 15 years' worth of my psychiatric notes, plus oodles of questionnaires for me and my parents, and hours of interview. And I still don't totally buy into my (later) ADHD diagnosis. (Happy to have the drugs, though…)

I mean, surely school wasn't that bad, even if I hoped each schoolnight that I wouldn't ever wake up from as far back as I remember, had serious behaviour problems that seemed inexplicable to staff, got kicked out at 10, left another school for the mental hospital at 15, and dropped out of college twice, and anyway I had no excuse for that behaviour and the social misery was entirely my own fault…

…and clearly I'm just finding excuses for myself both in the present and in the past, for what I've put my loved ones through over the years, and am making a big deal out of normal little things when everyone has quirks and difficulties, and anyway isn't it possible I've trained myself into this somehow or am unconsciously putting it on, or I've got learned helplessness, and doesn't it seem more likely I'm actually just wilfully crap at stuff rather than disabled…

…and anyway maybe I met the ASD criteria because the things I'm shit at just coincidentally line up with the things autistic people often struggle with, but the difference is autistic people can't help it, and besides which, isn't it kind of circular anyway, like "why am I shit at this stuff — it's because I'm autistic — how do we know I'm autistic — because I'm shit at this stuff", and also it could be that they only diagnosed me because I knew too much about autism and behaved the "right" way and gave the "right" answers subconsciously-on-purpose, and there are so many things that I can do just fine that real autistic people struggle with, and obviously if I put more effort in I could do the things that I prefer to believe my autism makes difficult…

…so maybe I'm just lazy, attention-seeking, gullible, manipulative, unlikeable, selfish, tactless, lack resilience…

Or alternatively:

I know I have this diagnosis but I don't want to be autistic, that would mean there was no hope I could ever be different, this means I have a faulty, substandard brain that doesn't work like it should [even though I don't think like that about other autistic people, obviously!], so maybe I should try being not autistic-like, and instead of using autism as a pathetic excuse to be crap, realise that I'm not actually autistic and get on with it, not lumber myself with a lifelong condition, and I know I've never yet managed it but I must've not been trying all those previous times…

And on and on and on. I'm an overthinker. Maybe it's because I'm autistic, or maybe it's a personal flaw that I could get over it I only put in the effort

Maybe your DD's thought process is similar, maybe not, but what you describe her saying — that self-doubt about your own subconscious motivations — is something I find very familiar, and I don't think it's that uncommon a thought to have, at least among later-diagnosed people.

Woman and girls get very good at masking, I used to come straight home from school and go to my room and rock back and forth until bedtime and at the weekends I'd spend up to 8 hours as a teen in my room rocking my parents never knew, it was just my way of disconnecting from reality and I'd never want them to know, they thought I was doing homework and couldn't understand why I had so many detentions for not doing my homework and such poor grades when I stayed in my room studying all day.