Finally - govt. explore dog ban

[Tapasita]

Finally the Govt are looking into banning* *American bully XL dogs. I expect the "it's not the dog but the owner" responses to this news but I do think these types of dogs are categorically more dangerous than other breeds, and I'm surprised, given the number of fatalities, attacks and serious injuries over the last few years (most on small children) that it's taken this long for someone in Govt. to pay attention. Why anyone would want to own such a savage dog is beyond me - I personally think it's a working class status symbol primarily. Sorry if that sounds rude but I do instantly judge people who choose these breeds of dogs above any other breed. They know they are heavy, dangerous and powerful. Just why? What are you trying to prove??? They're effing ugly to boot. And they kill children repeatedly.

Certain types of individuals choose that breed again and again with zero care for the consequences. It's just ignorance and "tough image" over..........well, anything else.

Absolutely they should be banned, and people who seek to own a dog - any breed for what it's worth - should be required to have a license and undergo appropriate dog-training courses. These two things should be mandatory, because any dog can kill or inflict serious injury regardless of their otherwise "peaceful" temperaments (which is always the counter-argument.)

American bully XL dogs: Suella Braverman orders 'urgent advice' on banning breed - BBC News

Yep, the law already prohibits any dog of any breed from being dangerously out of control in a public place, further more, the dog does not have to physically harm someone to commit an offence, they just have to cause reasonable apprehension of injury - ie you might reasonably fear being tripped or knocked over.

Depending on the details and relevant factors, an owner can be given a control order, requiring them for example, to keep the dog muzzled in public; on a lead of a specified length in public, or in specified locations; ... all the way up to a seizure and destruction order.

The fact is, we have laws that are not being enforced, that are not policed, that we could use.

Adding more legislation to the situation really doesn't help if we aren't using what we already have.

Our animal welfare laws state it is an offence to cause unnecessary suffering, and yet abusive dog trainers up and down the country can stick a prong collar or choke collar on a dog and lift that dog off its feet and choke it and call it 'training', despite there being myriad alternatives.

We still haven't yet banned shock collars.

Both methods are known to increase aggressive and unpredictable behaviour in dogs.

We also know that breeding dogs like livestock, in huge numbers without access to human company, fresh air, quality food, health testing, exercise, socialisation and habituation to normal household life, results in temperamentally, behaviourally unstable dogs with health conditions likely to result in pain and further behavioural issues - we still have licenced puppy farmers doing all of the above. And their checks for licencing... are often done with prior announcement so they can tidy up before hand.

There is a shitload that needs sorting out with our animal related legislation, and the policing and enforcement of it here - adding another breed to a ban that did not work is not a great starting point, it's a backward step. (And don't get me wrong, it would make no odds to my life whatsoever if XL Bullies didn't exist!)

So in Brighton a woman was walking her little dog when she saw two xl bullies loose on the pavement.She crossed over. They ran over and attacked her little dog giving it massive life threatening injuries. At one point one of the owners came out but couldn’t control the dog so went back in. The woman with the dog was also attacked. The woman got taken to hospital for lots of stitches and later plastic surgery to her arm. The dog had lots of surgery but survived. The police were called and spoke to the owners who were told to make their garden more secure and muzzle the dogs when taking them out. No charges at all. My neighbour left her greyhound with her in laws whilst on holiday. The dog got out and bit the in-laws next door neighbour who was a police officer. The dog was put down, they were charged and got a big fine from the court.

of the people on here who think xl bullies shouldn’t be banned , how many actually own one. I have only ever seen them with rough looking blokes. Luckily they are rare around here, dogs and blokes, but I don’t think it is fair for families in less affluent areas to live in fear for their children because of these thug dogs!

Yes, of course your dogs. You are like all of the other ‘But my dog…!’ People around. The principle is the same. I want my kids to be able to kick a ball around the park without constantly having to assess whether a nearby dog is a threat!

Too bad the idiot owners can't also be banned

I think they should be like criminals. Make it like carrying a gun. Own one of these things and get four years in prison. They are weapons and are bred for that.

I look forward to the million posts that declare they were bred originally to work in nurseries and rock children to sleep instead of eating them...

Exactly the problem.

Our laws are not being enforced properly.

Over zealous in the latter case unless there is extra info you're not giving there (such as the owner chose to euthanise rather than recieved a destruction order from the court), that would warrant a control order - muzzled in public, on a lead of no more than x length on pavements/x length in open spaces etc etc.

The former should have been dangerously out of control in a public place, criminal damage (the small dog), as well as injury to the small dogs owner - control order and depending on the background/history of the owner, possibly further steps (ie if they have a record, have previous control orders, have previous dog related offences, then seizure and probably destruction order, and fine).

I don't think XL Bullies should be banned because I don't think its an effective solution to the problem, and I do think (given past experience) it will mean government then sit back and do nothing else for decades, considering their part 'done' ... and we will be back here again with a different shaped breed, being used, owned, handled, dangerously.

I'd rather they didn't exist at all... but I think we can thank the pitbull ban for that, plus the systematic refusal to listen to dog experts for the last 20 years on a variety of matters, plus the reduction in policing, and many other factors.

As for breeding - honestly - in the UK - they were bred to be the legal replacement for pitbulls. That is their purpose, that is why they exist.

A big dog, cheap to feed, hardy, very easy to motivate in training (which means very easy to train to do awful things), that intimidates people simply by existing - that measures out of the DEFRA measurements/proportions for a pitbull.

You do realise the dogs she mentioned are Golden Retrievers? And that the poster is most likely just as worried about the Bullies as you are?

Don’t use the situation to tar all dogs with the same brush.

@GoryBory
‘I have a very strong, large breed (American bulldog x Rottweiler x mastiff) and her temperature is incredible.
She is the most beautifully natured dog you will ever meet so some people will say I’m biased’

genuine question- why did you want such a big, strong dog?

I can’t wait to see them banned. No one needs a dog that size with that much capacity for causing harm- they’re lethal weapons. And for all those people who think it’s just bad owners, no, it’s not. Do you think all owners of Yorkshire terriers are fantastic dog owners doing training and socialisation every day?! (Spoiler alert: they’re not) Yet when was the last time they were in the news for killing someone. Exactly.

If it is just bad owners maybe we should let people own tigers. And if a tiger kills someone say that the tiger owner was just a bad owner, and some tigers are lovely, so let’s not stop people owning tigers.

Come on government- ban them now!!

Thats a very fair question.

I love all dogs but I personally have always said I would never have a small dog as although some are lovely, some can be hard work, difficult to train and aggressive.

The same reason I wouldn’t have a working breed like a terrier breed, collie, husky or spaniel as these can be very challenging if not raised correctly (more so than other breeds).

I have worked with dogs and been around them for years and so I had a negative association with some of the above breeds.

As I worked in a rescue centre many of the dogs came in because they had behavioural issues or unfit owners and so my association with certain breeds was definitely unfairly biased but once you’ve got that in your head it’s hard to get out of it.
I loved them all and treated them all the same but I wouldn’t have gone out of my way to bring one in my home.

The breeds I did like were Rottweilers, American bulldogs, Dalmatians, golden retrievers, greyhounds, st Bernard’s etc so I have always naturally been drawn to bigger dogs.

Then my now dog came into the rescue and although I’d met hundreds of dogs, her personality and temperament just blew me away.
It’s hard to explain as lots of dogs have nice temperaments but hers comes across more apparent somehow.
She is a bit of a local celebrity and I’ve had many people wanting to buy her off of me. My vet has even asked me if I would go to him first if I was ever to get rid of her.

Its odd because she’s a mongrel and a breed that most people would avoid, especially coming from a rescue and having no history of her.
But everyone loves her.

I wasn’t planning to get a dog for a few more years but there were a few dogs in the dog warden that couldn’t find a place in the entire UK, as they were all full.
If they don’t get claimed or have a rescue space they get put down so they asked if people can take a dog for a couple weeks to free up some kennel space and get the other dogs out of immediate danger.

I said I’d look after my dog but I can only have her for a max of 2 weeks as I was working etc and wasn’t ready to have such a big commitment yet.
16 years later and she’s still here 😁

Bloody hell! How old is she?

Thanks for answering-that seems understandable in your situation and she does sound lovely.
I like big dogs but have never seen the appeal of challenging ones-I want a dog for my pleasure not to make my life more difficult and would hate to have the responsibility for something that could be so dangerous. Id also want to be able to control it if anything did go wrong so something stronger than me would always be a no.

There is an article today which says that XL bullies are being bred by toxic, abusive men. They have found a loophole to exploit.

I don't think they are impossible to ban. Height and weight, jaw dimensions and power and lack of a breed certificate should do it. A responsible owner will have a pedigree. These things don't have a pedigree by design.

They weren’t sure if her actual age but she was roughly about 1-2 so she’s about 17-18 now.

I think cross breeds do tend to live longer but obviously her days are counting down.

Yes I agree.

I wouldn’t go out of my way to get a challenging breed and that’s why I would avoid working breeds too, even though most are lovely I just wouldn’t want to make my life more difficult.

I am all for stricter rules on owning dogs but I don’t think it should be breed specific as I don’t think it gets to the route of the problem and I don’t think it will work as the status dog changes every couple of years.

No one should be able to go onto gumtree and get a dog for free or cheap, breed it, mistreat it and then sell it to someone else for them to do the same thing.
Its so cruel and it’s too easy for the idiots to get these strong breed dogs and someone gets injured or killed over it.

Prey drive refers to things like rabbits, rats etc. Terriers, sighthounds and the like have high prey drives. Dogs with high prey drives will chase (and sometimes kill) small animals. This doesn’t make them dangerous to other dogs or humans.

XL bullies are bred to be aggressive. These interbred, poorly trained lumps of muscle are also badly socialised and often mistreated, making them scared and defensive. Perfect combo for a dangerous dog.

I agree with the ban - it might be owners not dogs to blame, but I don’t think anyone should own such dangerous animals. We don’t campaign against domestic lion bans however well trained some of them can be.

""Cats are more predatory than dogs"*"
*
When I see a cat sitting in someone's front garden, I'm a lot less worried about it going for my throat then an off lead XL bully. Ridiculous comment

I agree existing laws need to be enforced better - but you only need to see all the threads on here to see that many owners think that those who are scared of and dislike dogs are the problem, rather than them for having dogs that they won't or can't keep under close control.

As I said above, I think if a dog injures a human the owner should be prosecuted as if they did it. So if a dog kills someone, that's manslaughter (could even be murder in some contexts), if it eg knocks someone off their bike and they break their arm, that is assault. The "he's only being friendly" brigade need to grow up and look after their dogs properly. It goes without saying that a dog should be put down if it causes death or serious injury.

And if a dog hurts another dog (or other animal), that should also be an offence which actually makes it to the courts and is prosecuted.

And I agree that cats are really not the problem here, although I would avoid certain breeds with young children, but they aren't going to go out and hurt complete strangers.

No one should be able to go onto gumtree and get a dog for free or cheap, breed it, mistreat it and then sell it to someone else for them to do the same thing.
Its so cruel and it’s too easy for the idiots to get these strong breed dogs and someone gets injured or killed over it

The government is currently consulting on making online marketplaces more accountable for the goods they have listed on their websites - maybe if a dog is sold on Gumtree and then causes injury, Gumtree should also be liable. That might concentrate a few minds.

I grew up with dogs (working farm dogs) ut think dog ownersbip should be seriously regulated and curtailed. Too many people simply do not understand the responsibility of owning a dog.

adding another breed to a ban that did not work is not a great starting point,

It has worked there are hardly any deaths by the 4 banned breeds in the UK over a few years. The problem is the bully xl is a pit bull type and there are issues identifying this then that should be made clear in an addition to the legislation. It can be confirmed that they are bred from pit bulls and action could be taken.

Anyway it’s not as if new breeds will need to be added every 5 minutes the breeding programme for these commenced in the 1980s and 90s and it’s taken 20 years to get to this point.

Even experts previously against banning breeds are now saying xl bullys should be banned
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-12506397/savage-Frankenstein-XL-Bully-people-die-canine-behavioural-expert-STAN-RAWLINSON.html

Also plastic surgeons are saying it now and they have to fix damage by all types of dog breed including small dogs.

There is clearly something wrong with this unpredictable, reactive and vey powerful ‘breed’. It isn’t just the owners it’s both. Yes all breeding should be restricted and licensed as well.

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12504859/American-Bully-XL-banned-plastic-surgeon-demands.html

And if a dog hurts another dog (or other animal), that should also be an offence which actually makes it to the courts and is prosecuted.

Absolutely. It doesn't take an expert to be able to tell the difference between a couple of dogs having mild fisticuffs in a park vs. the serious attacks by some dogs (many of this type) where other people's pets end up seriously injured or dead.

These kind of attacks also pose serious risk to humans, who will try and save their pets, and should result in at the very least a mandatory muzzle and on lead only ruling. Any transgression from that should lead to an immediate destruction order.

People have had enough of this shit.

It seems utterly bizarre that the dog from Saturday hasn't been PTS too. Who would want that back out on the street? Surely there can't be any other end to that particular dog's story, so why keep it in kennels and put the staff at risk looking after it.

I have a few friends who run commercial boarding kennels. One of the kennels banned dogs of this type years ago, as they found them entirely unpredictable and unsafe in a kennel environment. Good on them for protecting their staff. A manager of another kennels was saying they are likely to go the same way.

Where are you getting these stats from? I can’t find anything to suggest dog attacks have increased disproportionately to the number of dogs in the UK, and the National Police Chief’s Council said that the increase is down to more focus from the police.

Of course the breed of dog makes a difference to their behaviour. Traits are bred into dogs over generations - that’s why we use collies for herding sheep and sighthounds for pest control.

Add XL bullies (and all their sub-breeds) and use genetic testing (at owners’ expense) to prove it. I agree the measurement system is stupid, but nowadays you can get dog DNA done for less than £100.

Anything with pit bull / other banned breed DNA is subject to muzzle restrictions and tattooing or destroyed.

In addition, any dog over a certain weight and from a known guarding / fighting breed (like mastiffs) should be restricted to licensed owners.

Dog licences might be a good idea - I’m not sure. They would need to be enforced and currently not even microchip / collar laws are enforced so not sure there’s the money to do it. I don’t believe good owners should be penalised for bad ones - otherwise where do we stop? Make all young male drivers pay a levy to cover the ASB and damage caused by a few of them?