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Finally - govt. explore dog ban

249 replies

Tapasita · 11/09/2023 13:20

Finally the Govt are looking into banning* *American bully XL dogs. I expect the "it's not the dog but the owner" responses to this news but I do think these types of dogs are categorically more dangerous than other breeds, and I'm surprised, given the number of fatalities, attacks and serious injuries over the last few years (most on small children) that it's taken this long for someone in Govt. to pay attention. Why anyone would want to own such a savage dog is beyond me - I personally think it's a working class status symbol primarily. Sorry if that sounds rude but I do instantly judge people who choose these breeds of dogs above any other breed. They know they are heavy, dangerous and powerful. Just why? What are you trying to prove??? They're effing ugly to boot. And they kill children repeatedly.

Certain types of individuals choose that breed again and again with zero care for the consequences. It's just ignorance and "tough image" over..........well, anything else.

Absolutely they should be banned, and people who seek to own a dog - any breed for what it's worth - should be required to have a license and undergo appropriate dog-training courses. These two things should be mandatory, because any dog can kill or inflict serious injury regardless of their otherwise "peaceful" temperaments (which is always the counter-argument.)

American bully XL dogs: Suella Braverman orders 'urgent advice' on banning breed - BBC News

American bully XL dog

American bully XL dogs: Suella Braverman orders 'urgent advice' on banning breed

The home secretary says the breed is a clear and lethal danger, after a girl and two men are attacked.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-66770328

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
CaroleSinger · 11/09/2023 15:31

Well, I can only apologise for not being a working class knuckle dragger...

Finally - govt. explore dog ban
HerMammy · 11/09/2023 15:36

The DDA has never been fit for purpose or managed correctly, adding another breed won't improve anything. Completely innocent family dogs and puppies have been seized countless times based on looks and not behaviour which then leads to long costly process for owners to get their dogs back.
It has to be Deed not Breed.

ExtraOnions · 11/09/2023 15:39

Compulsory licences for all breeders.
All puppies to be microchipped before sale
All dogs to be leashed in public (other than specified dog exercise areas)
Compulsory insurance for all dogs - tied back to the microchip.

Minimum fine of £5000 or 30 days in prison for no adhering to the rules.

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 15:42

I don’t know if anyone has read up on fatal dog attacks much. I have, and sort of wish I hadn’t.

On here, you always get the same claims. That it isn’t the breed, that all dogs can be aggressive, it’s the owner, that people - children especially - need to be educated in how to approach dogs.

Almost all of the fatal attacks going back since they started being recorded in the UK are bull breeds, Rottweilers and German shepherds/alsatians. The outliers are Jack Russells, one Lakeland terrier and a husky.

There are no labradors, spaniels, border terriers, basset hounds, collies. None.

Is it because these breeds don’t bite? Of course they do. But when they do bite, they don’t kill. That’s the difference that people just can’t seem to understand. No one is saying that some breeds are inherently evil, any more than a great white shark is nastier than a goldfish. If a goldfish nibbles your toes, you probably won’t notice. If a great white shark does, you probably won’t survive.

ChardonnaysBeastlyCat · 11/09/2023 15:45

I have a very strong, large breed (American bulldog x Rottweiler x mastiff) and her temperature is incredible.
She is the most beautifully natured dog you will ever meet so some people will say I’m biased.

How on Earth did you get such a cross? Were the dogs bred on purpose?

ntmdino · 11/09/2023 15:50

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 15:42

I don’t know if anyone has read up on fatal dog attacks much. I have, and sort of wish I hadn’t.

On here, you always get the same claims. That it isn’t the breed, that all dogs can be aggressive, it’s the owner, that people - children especially - need to be educated in how to approach dogs.

Almost all of the fatal attacks going back since they started being recorded in the UK are bull breeds, Rottweilers and German shepherds/alsatians. The outliers are Jack Russells, one Lakeland terrier and a husky.

There are no labradors, spaniels, border terriers, basset hounds, collies. None.

Is it because these breeds don’t bite? Of course they do. But when they do bite, they don’t kill. That’s the difference that people just can’t seem to understand. No one is saying that some breeds are inherently evil, any more than a great white shark is nastier than a goldfish. If a goldfish nibbles your toes, you probably won’t notice. If a great white shark does, you probably won’t survive.

Equally, if you're looking at that, you can clearly see that banning dog breeds has had no positive effect on the number of fatal incidents. If anything, in the 30 years since breed-specific legislation has existed in this country, the number of fatal incidents has increased.

It just doesn't work, and there are far better alternatives.

First, transfer all the liability to the owner - prosecute as though they committed the crime themselves. After the first few high-profile prosecutions and people going to jail for manslaughter, a large proportion of the potential market for any dangerous dog will disappear.

Second, ban all dog breeding without a licence, with zero exceptions. If your dog gets pregnant, then you pay the price for being reckless. This is as opposed to the current law, which allows for two litters per year (I think).

Third, if you're going to ban any breeds, then ban them at the breeder - and determine it by genetics, not measuring their proportions at adulthood as they currently do.

This is a far more permanent solution than banning a type of dog which, by definition, isn't of any recognised breed. This way, the dogs never exist in the first place. It also doesn't have the ridiculous false-positive rate of the current flawed and ineffective methods.

The only problem is that it doesn't play as well with the "SOMETHING MUST BE DONE RIGHT NOW!" crowd as performative justice does.

ell87 · 11/09/2023 15:55

I live in the south and I don't think I've seen a single XL bully? I wonder if they're more popular in certain areas?

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 15:56

The number of fatal instances has increased dramatically in the last two years due to XL Bullies, it is beyond me why it’s taken until now for it to be addressed.

I do in part agree that it ‘doesn’t work’ but it doesn’t work because it is reactive not proactive. A dog attacks and if it’s a banned breed it is seized. That’s helpful to no one. The law needs to be proactive about seizing banned breeds.

It isn’t about being performative but really, something does need to be done.

ell87 · 11/09/2023 15:57

YeahIsaidit · 11/09/2023 13:55

Because its no different to punishing a whole gender/race of people for the actions of a few...

Perhaps a better way of going about things would be to make sure owners of ANY dog properly know what the dog needs in terms of training, exercise, socialising and stimulation and that they're properly able and equipped to follow those things through rather than oh well they want a dog so there you go.

Dogs should be registered and licensed (they are licensed here in NI) but muzzling them all or having a whole breed PTS is unreasonable

You could say the same for parents. I feel the same way about aggressive dogs as I do about nasty vicious teenage bullies in schools.
Owners of both humans and the dog variety should be held accountable.

oakleaffy · 11/09/2023 16:02

Bullywatch have traced the DNA from most UK bred XL bullies and have found them to come from a child killer ''HA'' {Human aggressive} male in USA - I can't remember it's name offhand.

They have very short tempers, and turn in an instant on innocent children, pet dogs and even their owners.

They are brutally strong, and often only a firearm will stop them once they are attacking.

Ban the wretched things.

ntmdino · 11/09/2023 16:03

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 15:56

The number of fatal instances has increased dramatically in the last two years due to XL Bullies, it is beyond me why it’s taken until now for it to be addressed.

I do in part agree that it ‘doesn’t work’ but it doesn’t work because it is reactive not proactive. A dog attacks and if it’s a banned breed it is seized. That’s helpful to no one. The law needs to be proactive about seizing banned breeds.

It isn’t about being performative but really, something does need to be done.

No, BSL has never been purely reactive - that's why there's such a high false-positive rate. The authorities will examine any dog that somebody makes a complaint about - then they'll measure their head, their haunches etc and decide whether they're of a banned breed. If they are, then they'll be PTS often regardless of any actual incidents, the outcome of temperament tests or even definitive DNA evidence to the contrary.

I call it "performative justice" because it has little or nothing to do with the actual breed of the dog - as soon as the dog is PTS, it gets counted in government statistics as a banned breed regardless of its heritage, and they can point to those numbers as a mark of how successful they are at keeping banned breeds off the streets.

If it was anything to do with safety, they'd have scrapped it long ago and chosen a more science-based replacement when it was clear that just banning breeds is doing nothing for public safety.

EasternStandard · 11/09/2023 16:04

I’m with the majority yanbu

takemeouttown · 11/09/2023 16:05

ell87 · 11/09/2023 15:55

I live in the south and I don't think I've seen a single XL bully? I wonder if they're more popular in certain areas?

They are rife in certain socio economic areas of all cities and large towns. I live in one of those areas and it is unpopular but certainly true to say that a very particular type of person tends to own these dogs.

off · 11/09/2023 16:08

I'm not convinced that breed-specific dangerous dog legislation is the best route to go — I agree with others who propose tighter legislation and regulation around ownership. We need a situation where owning a dog that may inconvenience, worry or harm other people or their property is a risky and unappealing prospect.

Compared to vehicle ownership, things like injuries, deaths and degradation of the environment are on a different order of magnitude, but IMO similar principles apply. You want to own something which can cause inconvenience, distress, financial costs, injury and death to other people. Therefore you should have to prove you're competent, pay through licensing for a system of regulation and enforcement, carry insurance in case of harm to others, and face legal or criminal consequences for any negative effects on others.

Ideally I'd go for something extremely strict, to make ownership of potentially dangerous dogs less appealing.

For example, you could require licensing of both owners and keepers, and separate licensing of breeders, with anyone who will have sole responsibility for a dog at any point needing to complete courses and pass tests, and keep their certification up to date. Anyone who's not old enough to follow the course and pass it isn't old enough to walk/look after the dog. Owners would have extra responsibilities and requirements, breeders yet more.

And separate licensing/registration of the animals themselves, with compulsory microchipping expanded and unified to provide a single registration number and contain extra information like DNA fingerprinting, and confirmation the dog has passed regular behavioural, temperament and training tests, plus a compulsory collar in public carrying the dog's registration number with a minimum font size.

A culture of routine checking of collars and microchips, with police officers, social workers, vets etc. carrying scanners. DNA testing of dog shit and dog-inflicted wounds, and retesting of dogs if any suspicion of discrepancy. Dog wardens patrolling. Large fines and criminal prosecutions for causing inconvenience to others by e.g. fouling, incessant barking, people having cause to fear your dog, jumping up on people in public, having the dog off lead outside designated areas, taking your dog somewhere it's not allowed, damaging someone's property or spoiling their food, clothes etc. Confiscation of animal plus loss of owner's licence for refusal to allow scanning, failure to chip or collar the animal or to keep it up to date, discrepancy between chip and collar, etc.

Dog destruction for any injury to people, pets, protected wildlife or livestock, or for dangerous failure of the behavioural, temperament and training test. Owner's insurance to automatically reimburse NHS for all human treatment costs, or private care if the victim prefers, plus compensation for lost income, suffering, mental health treatment and so on. Insurance to pay for all veterinary care for animal victims, financial and emotional impact for the owner of the animal victim(s). Insurance to pay for all property damage, including spooked or injured livestock. And any injury caused by a dog, owner/keeper prosecuted as though they caused the injury themselves. Your dog kills someone? Decades in prison for you. And so on.

(For the dogs' welfare, I'd also put limits on dog rescues, long quarantines and long kennel stays, with a recognition that euthanasia does not hurt the animal and it's preferable to keeping an animal warehoused. And no more imported street/rescue dogs — we have enough as it is. Plus, I'd have prosecution for anyone deliberately breeding or buying dogs with breed-related, inborn health problems, including all the flat-faced ones that can't breathe properly. I'd give existing animals an exemption (if sterilised), but all animals born after the cut-off and considered to have a high likelihood of such issues would be euthanised. If you only punish the breeding, there's still incentive to illicitly breed them, but if people know there's no point buying a mutated, suffering pedigree dog because you can't register it, get a collar to show it's licensed, or take it to a vet without it being destroyed, and then you'll be prosecuted for indirect animal cruelty on top, then I doubt they'd still be so popular.)

Not all of this stuff would work, some of it might seem draconian, and some of it would be expensive or difficult or both, but I do think we need a massive overhaul in how we think about the privilege of dog ownership, and how we manage it to reduce the impact on everyone else. Essentially, for all the many, many impacts dog ownership has or can have on other people — random members of the public, neighbours, everyone, and all so the dog owners alone can enjoy the benefits — I'd be trying to put at least the monetary costs of those things back on to dog owners, paid for by the dog licence fees and any fines levied. And as part of that, make owning a potentially dangerous dog much more difficult, because of the behavioural/temperament tests, and also something that could cost you all your money and your liberty, as well as your small children (since that alone doesn't seem to be enough).

I know that there would be people who would try to/manage to circumvent it all, just as there are people who drive without insurance or without a licence, or drive in illegal ways. But where something is a personal choice that can cause significant inconvenience or harm to others, we can at least try to prevent or offset the harm, and put the costs of doing so on to the people who want the privilege.

I also know that there are a lot of decent dog owners out there, with well-trained animals which have no detrimental impact on other people, who would object to paying for licence fees, training fees, testing fees and compulsory insurance premiums to cover all of this, but at the moment it's all of society that pays the cost of recreational dog ownership, rather than just dog owners.

swimlyn · 11/09/2023 16:08

Strange isn’t it, how the wasters in government can get legislation through easily about people on strike, and yet all you get is public hand-wringing on issues like this?

They obviously don’t get out much do they?

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 16:12

You’ll have to tell me what BSL stands for. To me, it’s British sign language which doesn’t fit into the context here Smile

I think we actually agree more than we disagree. We both agree that current laws and regulations are inadequate. But I don’t think not banning breeds is necessarily the answer. There has been a huge spike in fatal attacks recently and a lot of those attacks have been on adult men, which is an anomaly when you look through records and is indicative of the strength of the breed.

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 16:13

It’s because it’s happening on council estates @swimlyn . Children of the poor are dispensable. If XL Bullies were walking through Wimbledon common something would be done soon enough.

takemeouttown · 11/09/2023 16:15

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 16:13

It’s because it’s happening on council estates @swimlyn . Children of the poor are dispensable. If XL Bullies were walking through Wimbledon common something would be done soon enough.

Finally someone gets it.

Buildingthefuture · 11/09/2023 16:17

As someone who loves all dogs and has lots, I heartily agree that all dog owners should need a licence. Far, far too many people take on a dog with literally no idea of what it entails.
I also believe that breeders should, at their own expense, be forced to have an in person homecheck carried out, by a suitably qualified and experienced individual, for anyone who wants to buy a dog from them. If breeders are going to profit from the sale of dogs (and not just XL Bullies, any dog) then they should absolutely take responsibility for where said dogs end up. Far too many breeders sell to literally anyone.

ntmdino · 11/09/2023 16:20

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 16:12

You’ll have to tell me what BSL stands for. To me, it’s British sign language which doesn’t fit into the context here Smile

I think we actually agree more than we disagree. We both agree that current laws and regulations are inadequate. But I don’t think not banning breeds is necessarily the answer. There has been a huge spike in fatal attacks recently and a lot of those attacks have been on adult men, which is an anomaly when you look through records and is indicative of the strength of the breed.

Were you replying to me there?

BSL = Breed-Specific Legislation

The problem with it is that...well, it's specific to a breed. All that needs to be done to evade it is breeding a dog with slightly different proportions (because genetics are ignored in favour of the cheaper option of measurements), and bingo.

The very existence of XL Bully dogs proves that BSL is ineffective - they were bred specifically to get around the pitbull ban, and yet everybody's clamouring for another ban as though it solves the problem. All they'd need to do to evade that proposed ban is breed them to make the angle of the back different, or change the neck-to-head proportions etc.

It's insane, and yet here we are...

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 16:25

Thanks, yes, was replying to you.

It’s true that the ways around the law are a problem. I suppose that’s where the ‘pit bull type’ is a bit of a cop out in some ways. It’s obviously upsetting to think of a dog that has done no harm being destroyed but I still feel a bit ill at some of the stories I’ve read. The damage inflicted and the pain those poor children must have been in is horrendous and I just don’t think anything that can do that should be a pet.

BetterInBlack · 11/09/2023 16:25

Get rid of all dogs apart from service ones!

That won’t happen of course. These environment-damaging stinky and slobbering creatures that the socially-incapable use as human-substitutes will continue to be worshipped in the UK.

But as a start, let’s make the most dangerous ones illegal. It’s better than nothing.

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 16:32

BetterInBlack · 11/09/2023 16:25

Get rid of all dogs apart from service ones!

That won’t happen of course. These environment-damaging stinky and slobbering creatures that the socially-incapable use as human-substitutes will continue to be worshipped in the UK.

But as a start, let’s make the most dangerous ones illegal. It’s better than nothing.

Sorry to pick on yours as it is by no means the only one but it’s stupid posts like this that really detract from the seriousness of the situation and prevent any sensible discussion taking place. ‘I don’t like them so you shouldn’t have them’ is inappropriate and dismissive. There have been children and babies (and adults) who have gone through terrifying, painful and untimely deaths. We could do with looking at that and considering the best way of preventing there being more.

I don’t care one iota if a dog jumps up at me with muddy paws or barks too much or whatever. It’s annoying but no big deal. Hardly on the same level as Jack Kid’ date, or Bella Rae Birch. It’s awful, just really awful.

ntmdino · 11/09/2023 16:32

Summermeadowflowers · 11/09/2023 16:25

Thanks, yes, was replying to you.

It’s true that the ways around the law are a problem. I suppose that’s where the ‘pit bull type’ is a bit of a cop out in some ways. It’s obviously upsetting to think of a dog that has done no harm being destroyed but I still feel a bit ill at some of the stories I’ve read. The damage inflicted and the pain those poor children must have been in is horrendous and I just don’t think anything that can do that should be a pet.

It's not just that there's a bit of a problem with ways around the law; it's that the law doesn't actually solve the problem it's supposedly intended to at all. Attacks (both fatal and non-fatal) have demonstrably increased since BSL was implemented; it literally does nothing to fix the issue.

And that's aside from the fact that the current law has, for example, determined that only one dog out of an entire litter was a pitbull type, despite "testing" all of them. If you assume that the law is correct, and breed determines behaviour, then they gave the government seal of approval to five dangerous dogs. How is that helpful?

This is, of course, if you assume that the law in its current state (and Braverman's heroic changes) were ever intended to do anything but curry favour with the people who are screaming for "something" to be done.

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